Karen's Transformative Journey Through Trauma and Growth

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I'd love to help you get vulnerable.

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Let's get naked.

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Hey everyone, I'm Anne.

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Welcome to the let's Get Naked podcast, where we dive deep into vulnerability.

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In this space, we'll explore what triggers us, uncover the patterns holding us back and discover how to take charge of our own growth.

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If you're ready to dig in, be vulnerable and face the tough stuff, then buckle up.

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It's time to get naked.

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Today, we're stripping it off with Karen Nowicki.

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Karen has worn many hats in her life, from leadership, business ownership, coaching and resilience.

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She inspires others to find their purpose and chase fulfillment.

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Welcome to the show, karen.

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Thank you for having me.

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Yeah, absolutely, I like to just dive in, as you may know, so let's just get started by telling us the story of how and when you woke up.

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For those that are listening that maybe don't understand what I'm asking, I believe that there are variations of waking up, that there are people that are very much in the rinse, lather, repeat cycle, where they don't kind of really understand that there's more happening, and then there are those of us that I feel like have woken up or are in different degrees of waking up, where we really realize the importance of being of service to others and really being plugged into the universe, and so I have found that people that are awake usually have a story that kind of goes with you know when that happened for them, some when they were young, some, you know, for me, mine was much later in life, unfortunately, or unfortunately, who knows but do you have a story of kind of when you feel like you woke?

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up.

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Which one do you want?

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Story of kind of when you feel like you woke up?

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Which one do you want?

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Yeah, and I really I think I'd add to that for me.

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My experience for myself and clients, is we're never really fully awake.

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We're just going to get kicked back in the butt for a new experience, to continue to grow and expand.

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So two things come to mind when you ask that question.

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The first one, which was maybe when I semi woke up, is after having my first two kiddos, who were 28 and 30.

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I had pretty severe postpartum depression and it was part of the baby books that I skipped.

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I read so many books on parenting and motherhood and I'd get to that chapter on postpartum depression and I really thought I had a choice like, oh, that's not me.

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I've got it together right, I'm not going down that path and I and I literally would just not even read those chapters.

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And it was with my my oldest is 30, rocking him at night and having these visions out of nowhere where I might hurt him devastating, horrifying, scary.

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Fortunately I never acted on it and immediately was like what is wrong with me?

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How could I possibly even think about harming this little baby who's been entrusted with me and that's me?

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And so after the second time it happened, I told my husband which was scary and I went and got help and a lot of things unraveled after that.

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Like it, that's a mental health thing right.

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And so I began to openly talk about that, and then life just began to.

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I found ways to learn, grow, be of service to others, to use your language and help.

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I got certified as an integrative coach and a shadow coach and really became to better understand how to be the best version of myself, so that I lead with my soul versus my thinking, and also no leading with just the emotional part of me, which I had done previously.

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So then fast forward to just five years ago.

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I think the most major impactful lesson or calling was when my then husband landed in the hospital after shooting himself in the head with a suicide attempt, and it came out of nowhere for me.

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I mean, clearly he was on a journey but kept it to himself, and he spent the next month in trauma intensive care unit and then after that in a post-acute facility for another month, and then I just had one kiddo left at home who at the time was 12.

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, and I tried to bring him back home and reintegrate him and wasn't able to do that.

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He was verbally abusive to our son and I had to make a choice and got a divorce In that first, like I don't know three or four days that Mike was in the hospital.

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I remember waking up and you and I spoke about this before we started the conversation today just around how the universe speaks to us.

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I woke up and the first thing I had on my heart or on my mind really was almost like this loud download that said you're going to talk about this while it's happening.

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This is only three days into.

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I'm still in shock, still in trauma, and I just laid in bed like and I don't know if I'm allowed to- Please.

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We use all the words.

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We use all the words, karen I remember thinking to myself.

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And again, this is God or the universe speaking to me is my way of explaining it.

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And.

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I thought I'll just say screw you.

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Who is stronger?

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than God and I thought another big lesson, and this one's too big, this one's too private, it's not my story, I'm clueless as to what's happening, never been in this experience before.

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And then the next thing I heard was I've been preparing you your whole life for this, and that's really when, my fuck, you got serious.

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I thought, really, this is the love of my life.

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We were together for 15 years and he was choosing to leave this world and I'm what do I do?

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How do I do this?

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And how dare you suggest that?

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This is where you've brought me?

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Yeah, I'm in love.

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I love my life.

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We both had our own businesses and had just started them and a son together and just neat friends.

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And now this and I'm a good listener and I follow where I'm led when it comes to spirituality and growth, and so I chose to openly write about it, first on our what do you call it, I don't know GoFundMe campaign or the CaringBridge updates, and then eventually, facebook for almost a year and a half, wow, and lost several people close to me.

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His family refuses to speak to me.

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My sister and I had a falling out.

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I was very careful about what I was sharing.

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I had a couple of friends make sure that they read every entry.

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So that three things One, I was taking care of myself.

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I was being respectful of mike's journey, um, and not stepping over what, what he wouldn't want people to know, um, and that's tough.

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That's tough to do when you're talking about somebody else's um attempt at life.

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Yeah, and then uh.

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Thirdly, that if there was an opportunity to have somebody learn from it, was there that component of it?

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Lastly, though, that I didn't become this thing that I was trying to fix everybody or trying to be something bigger than who I am if that makes sense, it does.

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And there's only one entry that my best friend from high school and another dear friend from years later and a professional friend around coaching and integration and helping people said, yeah, maybe just like leave out this sentence.

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I don't remember what it was, but every entry they were like this is spot on.

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And I will tell you that I grew a great following of people who needed to hear what it's like to be a casualty of a suicide attempt.

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That's really kind of what I what I would say that Ivan and I were.

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We were casualties to this, this decision, this choice.

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I'm not making Mike wrong for it.

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I don't even know how I feel about any of that.

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I just have shared my journey.

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So since then I've had to rebuild my life, and rebuild it without him, which is was never part of the plan.

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Part of the plan, yeah, I will say that he passed away a year ago in Wisconsin.

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He went home to be with his family after he kind of struggled to find his way here and it was very tough all the way around.

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And yeah, so I, you know, just continue to shift and pivot and question a lot.

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I still question did I make the right decision?

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How, um, you know, is it okay to fall in love again, which I'm now engaged to be married, and all those things?

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Um, and learning how to not be as concerned about what everybody else thinks of me, even though I'm still concerned about what everybody else thinks of me?

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sure there's still that little girl in me that wants to please, yeah.

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Uh, even though I've come concerned about what everybody else thinks of me Sure, sure, there's still that little girl in me that wants to please, yeah, even though I've come a long way, to say you know, I just got to navigate life the way that I'm led.

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Yeah, no doubt you just even sharing your story.

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From the beginning I had full body shivers just listening to you, because it's when life deals you things.

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It's like we're okay, I'm handling this, but you do come from this place of you know, fuck you to the universe of why.

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Why am I navigating this?

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You know you had a 12 year old son.

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I'm assuming the older two were out of the house by that point okay, so very close, you know as a family and love their stepdad.

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but yeah, it was just the three of us at home Did you have any idea prior to this happening?

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Were there any signs of that?

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Were there, you know.

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Did you have a relationship where he shared kind of any of the struggles that he was going through leading up to that?

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Very strong masculine.

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I am unbreakable kind of guy.

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He had had a battle with cocaine years before and that was a surprise and shock to me and I thought, through our agreements and conversations and some help, that that had been handled.

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So there was heavy addiction that he really kept a secret from me, and because we were running both of our businesses, we were both extraordinarily busy for three years still coming home and being family, but I wasn't unaware of what was happening in his business as I handled mine, and so until my family closed the business it was an auto shop and made sense of the mess it didn't come clear to me what was happening on the financial end of things too.

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So I'm 60 years old as of last month and I'm starting over as if I'm 23 years old financially, which is really hard to do because, again, it was a surprise and I wasn't aware of all the things that had been taken from me as a result of him just trying to figure out life A lot of personal loans that I was unaware of.

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As far as the addiction, I was clueless.

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He had disclosed a couple of times to a couple of close friends that he I don't know what language they said he used, but that he was going to take his life or that he was just done.

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And no one came back and told me until after the fact, and so I got a phone call one morning and just said you need to get to the shop.

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And I knew instantly when that happened.

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We were on a little thread with some more baseball families for our son and I knew in that minute something was wrong.

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And I ran across the street to get a dear friend who was very close to Mike as well and I said we need to get the shop.

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And she just intuitively knew as well.

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And then life just changed dramatically after that.

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How do you hear that from someone?

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This is what comes to my mind when you say that he said that to other people, and other people don't say that to you.

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That makes me mad for you.

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Frustrated.

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A lot of folks still, even all these years later, are still very angry at Mike for what he did to Ivan and I, and I just can't wrap my heart or my brain around that.

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He did what he felt he needed to do and I know that he loved us.

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For people not to tell me he was just so strong, people not to tell me, um, he was just so strong.

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He was just masculine in presence, masculine in conversation, strong in everything, um, and I just don't think anybody took him seriously and he would.

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I can kind of see him, not that I was in that conversation, but I kind of see him, maybe like tapping on the shoulder, like I'm just messing around, I'm just, you know.

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I'm just messing around.

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I'm just, you know, I'm just.

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And then they would discount it because he was just so strong, yeah, and then when you got the peek behind the curtain after the fact, everything had crumbled for months before that and he just kept.

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This, in my words, would be a facade so that we were content and happy even though financially we were ruined.

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He was deep into an addiction.

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He was not sleeping at all.

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There's one gentleman, sweetest man, Pete, who once I started sharing on Facebook.

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This man reached out private message on Facebook.

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He's like Mike and I've talked all hours of the night for months.

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I guess he was somebody who helped him with a loan in some way, Don't know the details of that.

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And he's like Mike became my brother.

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He's my dear friend.

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I can tell you inequivocally that he loves you and Ivan and whatever he chose to do, while I disagree, he would tell me and I think it's, you know, shameful that he did it.

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I know he did it because he loved you.

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So getting that feedback and hearing from people different versions of who Mike was was hard to swallow.

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Yeah, and I like things in order.

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Yes.

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I like things to, I like to know what's coming up, I like to put things in bucket and if there's anything that I've learned as I've woken up again, to use your language, there are no guarantees.

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I don't know anybody else's story.

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I really don't know anybody else's story, and nor does anybody know mine, and that's the fascinating thing with sharing so openly.

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For all the years that I did, people have made assumptions.

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When I got engaged let's give that as an example Some man I don't even know his name now reached out in a private message on Facebook and said, wow, you got divorced two months ago and now you're engaged to be married again.

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Shame on you.

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Like, what a whore.

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Or something like that.

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And there was a much longer timeline there and I thought, wow, the lens in which we see each other is.

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We have to own that.

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He had no idea what my story was and I don't know at what point he entered in and started following and keeping track of what I was doing.

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But again, that narrative came from.

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Whatever his belief statements are and whatever he decided about me as also took place with my family and Mike's family and I can't control any of that.

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I can just keep showing up and being the best version of me that I know how and taking care of my little inner circle.

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I can't get my head around people that feel comfortable to say stuff like that.

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It's so weird.

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You have no idea.

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You have no idea and also no one asked for your opinion.

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No, and, and had it been years before, I probably would have like come back, even though I don't know this person.

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He was just following me and, and you know, fought for my opinion and tried to convince him and I just, obviously, I didn't even respond.

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Right, right.

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Right I thought, wow, that's just fascinating.

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Yeah, yeah.

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It's interesting to get to a point in life where you really don't care what other people think, because you know your opinion of me is none of my business.

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I stand behind that wholeheartedly.

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I teach my children that I you know.

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Try to relay that to friends, because I think we have gotten into a place, especially with social media and with other things, where we're really concerned about what other people think and I just think it's a waste of time.

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You know, I, I agree, and I'm still challenged to not care what other people think about me and and I'm okay with that, I'm I'm more tender with myself, I'm more gentle, I'm more patient and you know, it's almost like people say, like unstoppable, be unstoppable or have no fear.

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Really, yeah, I don't know that, at least the way that I run, I am going to be afraid at times and I'm going to be stopped in my tracks and I'm going to care what you think of me until I can go do the inner work and unravel it and go ah, okay, yeah, I don't need that.

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So I'm going to choose to keep it out here.

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Does that make?

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sense it totally does.

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I think that that all ties into emotional intelligence and also just really understanding.

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I think that mentality of like I don't have fear, I don't you know, unstoppable all of that.

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I think that's not having a grip on your emotions.

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On the other side of it because we do all have those things, so it's like, yes, you can still do those things afraid, you know.

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That's part of it is like I've gotten to a place in my life where I'm not going to come from a place.

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Of fear doesn't mean I don't feel fear, it means I'm not going to let that dictate what I'm doing and I will still do things afraid, you know.

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So it's still recognizing that that's there, still owning that, but being intelligent enough to know that that's not going to stop me.

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You know, I'm curious about, you know, when you say after the things that you learned, kind of after the fact.

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Obviously, if he's in the hospital for a couple of months, he's not at home trying to help you figure things out.

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It always seems unusual the thought of unpacking someone's life when they're not there.

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You know, finding out the things that you thought.

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You know you had this whole facade of him and he's this strong guy who's taking care of all of the things.

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Then this happens, and then you're finding all of the pieces of that.

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It's almost like you didn't have a full picture of the puzzle, and then it's all of these things that you didn't know.

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What does that feel like?

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It feels like what is wrong with me that I'm that clueless, that all these other things were happening and I had little hints.

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I remember coming home one day and my son I said where's dad?

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And he said, oh, he went up to the bar for a drink and I was excited because we were both home early.

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I'm like do you care if I go up and surprise him?

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Yeah, and and and just be gone for about an hour.

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He's like no problem.

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And I I got to the bar and I remember walking up to the bar and Mike had a hard drink on the rocks in front of him and and our agreement was no hard alcohol again.

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I don't know.

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That seemed to make sense to me and any justified that.

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The bartender just given him an like this.

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This whole thing of um untruths started coming rolling out, yeah, and I so desperately wanted to believe him in everything that he said to me, because that's what we're taught to do when we're in relationship with somebody, especially so intimately.

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Um.

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But then, when I look back after the hospital and I could see the signs of all the untruths, I remember at one point his mom had said to me how do you not know that your house is in arrears on the mortgage.

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And I said, here's how?

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I not know.

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I had my bills that I paid.

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And when I paid them, I told him I was paying them.

00:19:04.085 --> 00:19:06.582
And when Mike told me he paid them, I believed him.

00:19:06.582 --> 00:19:13.426
I never thought to check and he just did enough, just enough to never have it, you know, go into foreclosure for us.

00:19:13.426 --> 00:19:14.770
And I just didn't pay attention.

00:19:15.741 --> 00:19:16.948
I think that's really common, though.

00:19:16.948 --> 00:19:19.641
You know, I think in my house I take care of the finances for stuff.

00:19:19.641 --> 00:19:25.292
If my husband wouldn't know, you know he wouldn't know as long as his credit card works when he goes to use it.

00:19:25.292 --> 00:19:33.224
Like that's his involvement in the finances, like sure, we talk about the bigger picture stuff of where we're going, but like monthly stuff he's not, he's not plugged into that.

00:19:33.224 --> 00:19:35.327
That doesn't seem outrageous, you know to not.

00:19:35.327 --> 00:19:39.971
Also, it's so funny to me that people would feel comfortable enough to ask you stuff like that.

00:19:39.971 --> 00:19:41.606
Like you know.

00:19:42.339 --> 00:19:57.782
Well, we because we Again I was unaware of financially Family advised us to do a GoFundMe campaign, and I was blessed with so many beautiful donations and support to help get the house back where it needed to be.

00:19:57.782 --> 00:20:14.839
I eventually sold it and had to, and they just gave me some space to take care of my son and I while Mike was in the hospital, but at the same time I was running my business, and so I feel like it was appropriate for his mom to ask that question.

00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:22.057
It was a little backhanded and at the same time I can't navigate somebody else's journey in this.

00:20:22.057 --> 00:20:29.454
If there's one thing that I wish I would have had some more, I was going to say love around.

00:20:30.140 --> 00:20:40.445
I was so wrapped up into my journey and the pain of it that it wasn't until after Mike passed that I really started to look at what was this like for his mom, his dad, his sisters.

00:20:40.445 --> 00:20:47.723
I mean, I knew they were mourning and grieving and just as surprised and trying to make sense out of it as I was.

00:20:47.723 --> 00:21:00.484
But we were in such disagreement about how to handle this journey that it just became this great divide, and now I love them from a distance.

00:21:00.484 --> 00:21:04.200
That's all I can do because there's zero communication.

00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:09.474
But I never really slowed down long enough or gave myself the opportunity to go gosh.

00:21:09.474 --> 00:21:12.000
What would this be like if I were the parent?

00:21:12.760 --> 00:21:18.151
or the sister, and I'm sure that we're all asking similar questions.

00:21:18.151 --> 00:21:19.673
How did I not see this?

00:21:19.673 --> 00:21:21.878
Where did I contribute to this?

00:21:21.878 --> 00:21:23.442
You know?

00:21:23.942 --> 00:21:27.218
I think if we did that more often, it would take away the division between in those kinds of situations.

00:21:27.218 --> 00:21:29.585
If you really said you know what would this be like if I, if this was my son, that this was happening to you know?

00:21:29.605 --> 00:21:34.839
you really said you know what would this be like if I, if this was my son, that this was happening to you know?

00:21:34.839 --> 00:21:46.646
Or if they said, what would this be like if this was my husband, that this was you know, that this happened to it would be able to show you some grace in that situation and think, god, this, this is really hard, you know, I can't even imagine.

00:21:46.646 --> 00:21:48.356
Yeah, were you and Mike?

00:21:48.356 --> 00:21:54.868
Um, before this happened, do you feel like you were in a place where you felt like your marriage was good?

00:21:54.868 --> 00:21:56.761
You were like all of the things right.

00:21:56.862 --> 00:22:00.164
Yes, normal, healthy, busy parents.

00:22:00.164 --> 00:22:16.808
We had a neat circle of friends around the club baseball team and, yeah, we I mean I was happy and content and again, I think, to the degree that he could allow himself to be through addiction and mental health challenges.

00:22:16.808 --> 00:22:19.797
I think it's true he was very sleep deprived and there was some.

00:22:19.797 --> 00:22:21.984
I mean there was alcohol and drugs involved.

00:22:21.984 --> 00:22:23.099
Again, I was clueless.

00:22:23.099 --> 00:22:32.585
It wasn't until I was moving out of the house that I would find them, you know pills hidden everywhere and that changes who you are.

00:22:32.585 --> 00:22:41.371
So, within the addiction and within his own challenges, um, he loved us the best way that he knew how.

00:22:41.371 --> 00:22:49.586
I really have to believe that yeah, wow, that's, that's crazy could I share something else?

00:22:49.625 --> 00:22:52.391
I would love for you to no, you take it where you want to.

00:22:53.996 --> 00:22:55.682
So now he's been gone a year.

00:22:55.682 --> 00:23:07.426
This was right before COVID, literally months before kind of the whole world shut down and then after the divorce it took me some time to kind of just get my footing right.

00:23:07.426 --> 00:23:09.382
My whole system was off.

00:23:09.382 --> 00:23:33.656
I'm just ever vigilant on everything, trying to run the business, which I eventually sold, and I've just started a new job this month and I'm in this new relationship now and being able to trust and love not only my fiance but also my friends and myself and trust that I'm in this new position and that's going to be okay.

00:23:34.157 --> 00:23:53.970
I really have to check myself because my first response now is like or um, it's just fascinating, and I I don't think I was like that before, but those responses, those trauma responses, um, are really evident frequently, especially because there have been so many new things going on.

00:23:54.035 --> 00:24:10.782
I think, like in the last five months, got engaged, moved into our home together my childhood home actually, we bought it from my dad Sold my business, started a new job within I don't know, four or five months, and so so many changes have been happening that I've had control over, and yet it's a lot.

00:24:10.782 --> 00:24:16.003
And so I'm having to really check myself and just make sure, is this pace something I can handle?

00:24:16.003 --> 00:24:23.744
Where am I afraid and it's a visceral reaction, or where am I telling myself that I need to be afraid?

00:24:23.744 --> 00:24:24.487
And how do I go in?

00:24:24.487 --> 00:24:38.796
And I clean that up, which is what I do with clients, right, I help people feel into their body somatically and help them clear that and know how to navigate that so that when it shows up for themselves they don't have to rely on someone like me or professional at times.

00:24:38.796 --> 00:24:45.901
They can really become soulfully self-reliant and get through those times and I'm not without having to do that for myself Sure A lot.

00:24:46.182 --> 00:24:48.346
Yeah, because this is a huge thing.

00:24:48.346 --> 00:24:51.760
I mean, this is everything and everything that's wrapped up into it, right?

00:24:51.760 --> 00:25:02.178
It's not just the act of that, it's feeling like you're betrayed, that you were, you know, left, that you weren't considered, that it was very selfish, that you know resentful of being left in the position that you were.

00:25:02.178 --> 00:25:12.448
You know how, um, you mentioned that he was, came home and was being, uh, you know, verbally abusive to your son or or otherwise, not appropriate, how long.

00:25:12.448 --> 00:25:17.996
So he was in the hospital for two months and then he came home, or like what was the timeline and how did that?

00:25:18.155 --> 00:25:19.358
unfold TQ.

00:25:19.358 --> 00:25:25.902
So trauma intensive care unit, not just intensive care unit, but trauma intensive care unit for a full month and those people were phenomenal.

00:25:25.902 --> 00:25:33.186
Then a month in a post acute facility just for the physical things, the tracheotomy, pt, OT, all those things.

00:25:33.186 --> 00:25:44.017
I couldn't afford this combination for a post-acute facility between the mental health piece and the physical, and so I was advised and it was the right thing to make sure that he got physically okay After that.

00:25:44.017 --> 00:25:46.945
And again, this is where I'm not sure I made the right decision.

00:25:46.945 --> 00:25:50.559
I kind of relied on family and friends to help me make this decision.

00:25:51.261 --> 00:25:59.846
We moved him into an apartment and even a hotel before that because people, including myself, were afraid for him to come home and be with Ivan and I.

00:25:59.846 --> 00:26:12.681
So that was another month of this back and forth every day to check in on him, and it was awful, and then eventually felt safe enough after some outpatient therapy to have him come home.

00:26:12.681 --> 00:26:23.141
And so really like three or four months, and it was just one day I hadn't even left the neighborhood and Ivan called me and said come pick me up, I don't want to be home with dad anymore.

00:26:23.141 --> 00:26:30.984
And I was turned around, I hadn't been gone for two minutes, came back, he got in the car and I said what happened and he said give me a minute.

00:26:30.984 --> 00:26:33.960
And got in the car and I said what happened and he said give me a minute.

00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:34.981
Again he's 12 years old, 13 years old.

00:26:34.981 --> 00:26:35.884
And so I'm like, okay, what's going on?

00:26:35.884 --> 00:26:36.266
He goes something.

00:26:36.266 --> 00:26:49.799
We had just gotten a puppy, a COVID puppy, and some issue happened between his dad in those few minutes that I was gone, and Ivan was so rattled within those minutes and I said, buddy, can you tell me what happened?

00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:53.483
He said, mom, I can't, I'm sorry, I don't remember.

00:26:54.005 --> 00:26:56.887
And I knew that it was again trauma.

00:26:56.887 --> 00:27:02.047
He right in whatever happened, it was so triggering for him that he couldn't remember.

00:27:02.047 --> 00:27:04.057
That's what happens when we're in a traumatic experience.

00:27:04.057 --> 00:27:08.070
We go into fight, flight, freeze or fawn mode and he completely checked out.

00:27:08.070 --> 00:27:18.277
And there were other little examples that I witnessed and was aware of some of the aggression that was starting to appear and make it hard for Ivan to just be free to be himself.

00:27:18.277 --> 00:27:31.298
And it had never been like that before and I went to we were going to the pet store and I came home and a day or two later and he was never left alone again Until a while after that, when he was in an apartment, they got together again.

00:27:31.298 --> 00:27:39.529
But I just knew I couldn't have him be in a situation where he felt unsafe emotionally, mentally or physically.

00:27:39.690 --> 00:27:42.983
Yeah, Did he have a good relationship with Mike prior to?

00:27:44.336 --> 00:27:45.160
Here's what's interesting.

00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:47.442
Yes, they had a fantastic relationship.

00:27:47.442 --> 00:27:48.980
Baseball was their life together.

00:27:48.980 --> 00:27:55.377
Mike was a great dad is a great dad relationship Baseball was their life together.

00:27:55.377 --> 00:28:00.186
Mike was a great dad is a great dad and for these last several years that Mike has really not been part of our life.

00:28:00.186 --> 00:28:03.961
Ivan, as I think any kid would do, kind of changed how he told the story about his dad.

00:28:03.961 --> 00:28:05.384
No, we were never close.

00:28:05.384 --> 00:28:15.243
No, he wasn't there for me and I think some of that's true when he, when it started getting close to where he was making some decisions about his life and wasn't letting it in on us.

00:28:15.243 --> 00:28:22.464
But I just let Ivan have his space to separate himself from his dad in the situation.

00:28:23.006 --> 00:28:29.757
And now that Tom is in our life and we're in this new home together which was not an easy task to encourage my son to say that this was going to be an okay thing.

00:28:29.757 --> 00:28:33.182
Like he was adam, he was not coming with us and it got.

00:28:33.182 --> 00:28:34.285
It got rough.

00:28:34.285 --> 00:28:47.367
Now that we're together and he's forming this relationship with tom living in the same home, I'm witnessing him get to be the preteen that he didn't get to be silly things, jumping the pool and looking at us to make sure that we're watching.

00:28:47.367 --> 00:28:51.986
You know um sitting down on the sofa with us and showing us silly videos.

00:28:51.986 --> 00:28:57.143
He wasn't doing a lot of that with us and talking about his dad.

00:28:57.522 --> 00:29:02.903
Tom has these records in the garage, right and he said can I go through them and pick some of them?

00:29:02.903 --> 00:29:05.435
And he came in he said I hope I didn't take too many.

00:29:05.435 --> 00:29:06.797
Let me know if I took too many.

00:29:06.797 --> 00:29:08.960
And four of them were mom.

00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:10.381
This was dad's music.

00:29:10.381 --> 00:29:11.623
This is who dad loves.

00:29:11.623 --> 00:29:15.587
He just recently bought a Nike jacket, like a retro Nike jacket that his dad loved.

00:29:15.587 --> 00:29:32.459
He found it online and he's talking about Mike Moore and I'm so pleased to see that because now I think he gets to just be himself and love on his dad the way that his dad was deserving of and for whatever reason maybe through my angst and difficultness he didn't feel like he could do that.

00:29:32.459 --> 00:29:32.960
Yeah.

00:29:33.401 --> 00:29:37.288
Well, that's a tough thing to navigate at 12, you know to be able to.

00:29:37.288 --> 00:29:40.338
It's one, and here's where my head goes.

00:29:40.338 --> 00:29:41.320
It's one thing.

00:29:41.320 --> 00:29:48.603
If your dad dies, regular causes, right, the suicide is a whole nother component of that.

00:29:48.603 --> 00:29:49.265
That's huge.

00:29:49.265 --> 00:29:52.691
And on top of that, having it not actually be successful is another component of that.

00:29:52.691 --> 00:29:52.747
That's huge.

00:29:52.673 --> 00:29:58.352
And on top of that, having it not actually be successful is another component of that, where it's like, what does that look like?

00:29:58.352 --> 00:30:00.859
Like, what are the emotions that you process for that?

00:30:00.859 --> 00:30:10.458
Because from the outside and I've never had anything like this happen but from the outside I feel like there would be resentment, I would be mad, I would almost wish that it had gone.

00:30:10.458 --> 00:30:16.710
You know, because you're dealing with, yes, the loss of all of that, but then all of this messy, everything else that goes on top of that.

00:30:16.710 --> 00:30:22.596
You know, especially as you're finding out some of this shit that he was keeping from you, or you know, or not taking care of you in the right way.

00:30:22.596 --> 00:30:24.440
And again, I know that he's doing the best he can.

00:30:24.440 --> 00:30:27.423
So I'm definitely not trying to like, vilify him at all.

00:30:27.423 --> 00:30:32.090
I, you know, I totally get all of that, but you know, from your standpoint, what does that look like?

00:30:32.714 --> 00:30:34.201
Well, for my son, I don't know.

00:30:34.201 --> 00:30:43.190
Right Again to what we said earlier can we really know what anybody's journey is without really knowing what's going on in their head, their heart and their body?

00:30:43.190 --> 00:30:53.719
Everyone who knows my kiddo will tell you he's a great young man, he's an honor student, he's an athlete, he gets along with, you know, two-year-olds on up through 90-year-olds.

00:30:53.719 --> 00:31:04.656
He's very charismatic and he's a normal now 17-year-old kid navigating his life post-COVID, which, you know, that was weird too, let alone even what we went through as a family.

00:31:04.656 --> 00:31:06.780
I'd have to leave him again.

00:31:06.780 --> 00:31:17.011
Just I think nine months later I'd have to go to work, have him that was the year they were sitting in front of their computer for school and trust that this kid who's already been through this traumatic experience.

00:31:17.011 --> 00:31:19.472
Now we've left our you know our large five-bedroom home.

00:31:19.472 --> 00:31:36.517
We're now in a two-bedroom little you know family place, an Ahwatukee rental, and I'd have to leave him every day behind that, sitting in front of that computer.

00:31:36.537 --> 00:31:41.093
And I was a former educator, third grade teacher and assistant principal, and I'd say to him look, leave a hat off your head, make sure the blinds are open so your teacher can see you and have your, your camera on the whole time.

00:31:41.113 --> 00:31:47.422
Well, as the weeks went on, the blinds were closed, the hat was on and eventually the screen was off and he's like mom, they don't care.

00:31:47.422 --> 00:32:00.478
Well, I couldn't help him navigate that, but I was watching my kid withdraw and I mean we saw professional help.

00:32:00.478 --> 00:32:03.511
We both got a lot of professional help him reluctantly, and every once in a while he's asked if he can go see and talk to somebody again.

00:32:03.511 --> 00:32:13.516
So my hope is is that just, you know, he's this average, normal, healthy kid with a skill set and a toolbox around how to kind of navigate life's decisions in the most soulful way that he can.

00:32:13.516 --> 00:32:26.718
And I also know that things are going to show up and I don't really know at what point he might have some aha moments or those woken up moments that call for him to be a different version of himself.

00:32:26.718 --> 00:32:31.859
I'm hoping that happens through some graceful experiences instead of traumatic, difficult decisions.

00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:40.063
Yeah, I think when our kiddos go through difficult stuff like this, it really sets the stage for them being able to show up for other people too.

00:32:40.243 --> 00:32:43.900
You know that being part of his story will be huge.

00:32:43.900 --> 00:33:00.647
Right, he'll be able to take that toolbox and, yes, it sucks that at 12, he had to deal with all of that and navigate all of that but how much better he will be as an adult or a person of any age, being able to really shine light on that for people or share his story or be that example.

00:33:00.647 --> 00:33:15.887
You know my middle daughter has had lots of struggles, but I look at it now that she's kind of on the other side of that a little bit and she's such an inspiration to other people because she's willing to be vulnerable and share her struggles and share the messy parts of things you know.

00:33:15.887 --> 00:33:22.087
So for him to be able to really process that as it keeps coming up right, because it's not like, oh, I process that.

00:33:22.087 --> 00:33:23.859
Now it's done, we're going to put that in a closet.

00:33:24.381 --> 00:33:32.230
I'm sure there's things all the time that come up that you're listening to music that was his dad's or listening to things that remind, uh, him of his dad.

00:33:32.230 --> 00:33:35.377
Uh, it brings up stuff in waves.

00:33:35.377 --> 00:33:36.641
It's not like it's ever done.

00:33:36.641 --> 00:33:38.484
You'll never be done kind of healing.

00:33:38.685 --> 00:33:49.999
It never, is it never is from any of the things that we go through, which is interesting to me because, you know, we were talking about kind of the work, and it's like, oh god, now I have this next lesson and I don't want to do this one, you know, or?

00:33:49.999 --> 00:33:59.143
But it's amazing how the universe just puts those lessons in front of you, um, whether you're ready or not you know, it knows when you are and so it's just going to keep putting them in there.

00:33:59.564 --> 00:34:01.498
Yeah, that's, that's absolutely fascinating.

00:34:01.498 --> 00:34:13.958
I have a, a 17 year old son, and as I'm listening to you speak, I'm I'm having a hard time, not not kind of.

00:34:13.958 --> 00:34:14.639
What would that be like?

00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:15.420
What does that feel like?

00:34:15.460 --> 00:34:20.036
You know, because I look at my, my son's relationship with my husband and it's, it's powerful, it's so cool to watch.

00:34:20.036 --> 00:34:28.824
So to hear him talk about, you know, the club baseball, and that's your dad, that's your dad, you know, and so my heart breaks for him to have to deal with that.

00:34:28.824 --> 00:34:31.297
And then, like you said, all of the different things of now.

00:34:31.297 --> 00:34:42.981
At least he can kind of go back and do that early teenage stuff with the jumping in the pool and looking to see if you're watching, and that makes me happy, because when that trauma happens it does kind of shut you down at that point.

00:34:42.981 --> 00:34:54.934
And so for him to kind of be able to pick back up in that and, you know, bond with Tom and have that be something that can kind of normalize a little bit I don't know if I have time to share this, please do.

00:34:55.556 --> 00:35:00.188
But while I was dating, it was really hard for Ivan.

00:35:00.188 --> 00:35:16.190
There were a handful of people that I dated for several months, and I'm an open book and I'm also someone who, if we care enough for each other that we're going to be spending time together, I want you to meet my kids and my inner circle, and so Ivan would meet.

00:35:16.190 --> 00:35:21.161
You know, he met a couple of guys that I dated and it was very hard for him.

00:35:21.161 --> 00:35:28.880
There was this trauma bond between the two of us that I don't think either of us recognized until after the fact.

00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:38.911
I remember pulling into the garage one time in our little rental, maybe two months after we were there, and I couldn't get out of the car, I just had a moment.

00:35:38.911 --> 00:35:41.603
I was depleted, deflated.

00:35:41.603 --> 00:36:03.784
I can't remember even what happened, but I just remember leaning over the steering wheel, crying, and I must have been there for five, maybe 10 minutes and Ivan, you know, had heard me open the garage door and came out and he opened the car door and I just melted into my arms and he had to be that partner to me In moments like that several times, as I was for him.

00:36:03.784 --> 00:36:10.847
And that's a very unique closeness that people experience when you go through something like this together.

00:36:13.596 --> 00:36:19.588
And so he would say to me, like when Tom and I got engaged, he'd say to me you're choosing Tom over me.

00:36:19.588 --> 00:36:25.860
And I'm like it didn't even make sense to me, like how can you even say that?

00:36:25.860 --> 00:36:30.625
And it got so hard for us.

00:36:30.625 --> 00:36:39.929
He was so adamant about coming and going as he pleased and not maybe even thank you, I probably I don't know if I can, I have some.

00:36:39.929 --> 00:36:49.063
He got so adamant about us not moving in with each other and part of the decision for Tom and I was financially too.

00:36:49.063 --> 00:36:55.086
Again, I'm still rebuilding, yeah, and so grateful that we have this now home together and we can build.

00:36:55.086 --> 00:37:00.541
We're both having those conversations about finances that Mike and I hadn't had and it just feels phenomenal.

00:37:00.541 --> 00:37:03.521
I lost my train of thought.

00:37:05.335 --> 00:37:08.336
You were talking about in the garage when he came out and he was yeah, just that.

00:37:08.416 --> 00:37:36.655
so I, I, you know he had to be there for me like an adult at times not that I ever intentionally put that on, but when, when I can't even get out of bed or I can't make breakfast and there were those days, a lot of those days um to then switch and realize that he became that partner to me in ways that I never realized until I had a partner in my life who wanted to care and take care of me, and so I had to help and unravel.

00:37:36.655 --> 00:37:37.878
I know what I was going to share.

00:37:37.878 --> 00:37:40.425
This was a really hard decision.

00:37:40.425 --> 00:37:56.884
I said to him when it got so ugly if you choose not to come and live with us and you think you're going to come and go as you please while still a minor in our home, then you're going to have to legally emancipate yourself from me and when you move out you're going to take everything with you.

00:37:56.884 --> 00:38:02.384
I will tell you, ann, had that actually happened, I don't know how I would have survived.

00:38:05.208 --> 00:38:05.789
You're killing me.

00:38:05.789 --> 00:38:08.965
I have a 17-year-old boy who I just all of the things that you're saying.

00:38:08.965 --> 00:38:16.425
It's I don't disagree with any of the stuff that you're saying right, but it's like that's so hard to do that as a mom, you know.

00:38:17.876 --> 00:38:18.940
And I had to.

00:38:18.940 --> 00:38:46.945
It got to that point where I felt like I had to be that strong, like, okay, you think, basically you think you're the boss and you think you're old enough and mature enough and savvy enough that you're going to navigate the world and couch surf on all of our friends' sofas, just because you think it's going to be so awful in this new situation with Tom and I, who've chosen this as much for each other as for you.

00:38:46.945 --> 00:38:56.739
So if you can't see through that, then you are going to have to do this legally and I seriously am so grateful that he didn't choose that.

00:38:56.739 --> 00:39:12.525
I might even say I kind of called his bluff Maybe that's not great language, but the risk in saying that to him, because had he chose that, I really don't know how I would have gotten up every day after that.

00:39:12.525 --> 00:39:14.208
So again, I'm grateful.

00:39:14.355 --> 00:39:16.500
Within days it was joyful.

00:39:16.500 --> 00:39:19.768
He loves being in our home, which was grandpa's home before.

00:39:19.768 --> 00:39:20.896
He loves having a pool.

00:39:20.896 --> 00:39:25.746
He hadn't been inviting friends over into our small little place and now we have friends over.

00:39:25.746 --> 00:39:45.394
You know, quite frequently it's been magical and yet some really tough decisions and really difficult conversations, because we have had our own experience in this and have again no clue what it's been like for each other, even though we've been extraordinarily close and navigating it together.

00:39:45.615 --> 00:39:50.394
Mm-hmm, what a bond for you and him like for each other, even though we've been extraordinarily close and navigating it together.

00:39:50.394 --> 00:39:57.275
What a bond for you and him.

00:39:57.275 --> 00:39:57.695
You know, what a bond.

00:39:57.695 --> 00:40:07.670
I look at the phases of that for him and, like you said, him having to kind of fill in and be that strong person for you and then having Tom come into your life, it's another thing for him.

00:40:07.670 --> 00:40:09.554
So it's just kind of been one thing after another.

00:40:09.554 --> 00:40:13.262
So I love to hear that he's settled into that and understands.

00:40:13.282 --> 00:40:17.860
You know, I think kiddos resist certain things and I do think that we have to do that tough love component of it.

00:40:18.280 --> 00:40:19.364
We're not doing it this way.

00:40:19.364 --> 00:40:25.543
This isn't the right way, and I'm the adult who has more years on the planet and so I can see that this isn't going to work out, even though you're going to kick and scream.

00:40:25.543 --> 00:40:30.920
So I'm very happy to hear that that's how that, you know, has ended up or is progressing.

00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:52.559
What do you feel about, you know, when you look at Mike being raised this strong we don't talk about the things, right, that's a big component of stuff that I talk about because I feel like, you know, the women in our society have been raised to not have a voice, to not speak up to, like all the things, but men have been raised to not show emotion, to be strong to all of the things.

00:40:52.559 --> 00:41:05.219
How are you raising Ivan to be different so that he can have the emotional intelligence and can know that you get support for things or we talk about things or there's not, things that are shameful when you're struggling?

00:41:05.219 --> 00:41:06.782
You know how do you, how do you do?

00:41:06.822 --> 00:41:16.958
that well, I just I only know how to be me, and because, professionally as much as personally, I've I've really chosen to listen to my inner landscape and know how to navigate it.

00:41:16.958 --> 00:41:19.425
Um, my kids probably.

00:41:19.425 --> 00:41:21.431
It probably drives them crazy.

00:41:21.431 --> 00:41:32.010
I talk about everything and I share very openly with them, and I and I want to look underneath what's being said, uh, and so they don't know any different.

00:41:32.010 --> 00:41:41.340
I will also say, though, that they're making their own choices and navigating life the only way that they know how, um, and aren't as open as I am.

00:41:41.340 --> 00:41:45.588
Um, and maybe my daughter is but um, but he has the skillset.

00:41:45.588 --> 00:41:46.016
How's that?

00:41:46.016 --> 00:41:48.920
I know that he has a skillset because I get that feedback from other people.

00:41:48.920 --> 00:41:56.547
He is very compassionate, he's very empathetic, and when there's challenges, he's pretty independent.

00:41:56.547 --> 00:41:59.880
He'll take care of them himself, and he also knows he can always come to me.

00:41:59.880 --> 00:42:01.043
Yeah, yeah.

00:42:01.644 --> 00:42:08.157
I watched my son develop and I got sober eight years ago and that's really kind of was a defining thing in my life.

00:42:08.217 --> 00:42:14.860
But to watch him, because I'm the same way, I allow the mess to be out in public.

00:42:14.900 --> 00:42:31.405
I'm not hiding that, you know, not necessarily public but, yes, now public, but in my house, where it's, I'm not hiding those, those things that I'm learning and figuring out in front of my kiddos and I feel like that's been a gift, you know, even though that was hard and it was messy and it was all the things.

00:42:32.195 --> 00:42:59.023
I look at all three of my kids now and I am honored with the emotional intelligence that they have that they would not have had had I not been willing to do those hard things in front of them, had I not been willing to show the underside and understand and talk about the things, and so I think us being willing to do that with our kids and then they also then in turn can do that with their peers or with other people that are in their lives, I think doing this work is huge.

00:42:59.023 --> 00:43:18.487
You know, him just being willing to come and speak with you about things or being comfortable, or I hope we're raising a better generation of men than our husbands and than our brothers, and you know all of that, where they weren't allowed as you said, they weren't allowed to show the emotion and show, I think, vulnerability emotionally.

00:43:18.507 --> 00:43:38.237
Yeah, for me, vulnerability was always a weakness, you know, prior to, you know, for me getting sober and kind of starting to dive into that, and I look at my brothers, I look at the you know, my sisters that were raised in our household or people that were raised around that time or whatever, and it was very much like that, you know it was.

00:43:38.237 --> 00:43:46.965
We don't talk about things very much based in shame, you know, very much based in what would people think and what would people say.

00:43:46.965 --> 00:43:54.983
You know, I always tell people I was raised to be a liar, you know, because you hid those things from people you didn't want other people to know.

00:43:54.983 --> 00:44:08.967
And it's almost what fuels me now, because I just think we're not doing that, you know, we're talking about all the things and I don't care if it's messy or whatever, but we're not living in shame when it comes to any of the stuff that we do.

00:44:08.967 --> 00:44:10.742
Everyone's just doing the best that they can.

00:44:10.742 --> 00:44:32.103
And in my household, if everybody woke up on the right side of the grass, we call that a win, because things are hard and things are messy and we should be able to talk about those things and share how we got through that and what our struggles were, and acknowledge I couldn't get out of bed for a while, right, because that's, that's the stuff that I think I'm getting full body chills.

00:44:32.103 --> 00:44:32.626
Just saying that.

00:44:32.626 --> 00:44:47.561
That's the stuff that I think makes people uncomfortable, you know, is that level of grief, you know that level of the stuff that you're processing is it makes people pull away because they don't want to get involved in any of that mess and it's like, no, that's what life is.

00:44:47.940 --> 00:44:48.501
It is life.

00:44:48.501 --> 00:44:53.005
It is life Whether it's big trauma or little trauma and everything in between.

00:44:53.565 --> 00:45:18.445
We're all navigating this journey, I think, while we're here and, in my opinion, to be a better version of ourselves before we leave, whether we are signing up for that or not, and we have to have those hard conversations and the tears and the angry moments and the confusion, because without that, what are we doing?

00:45:18.445 --> 00:45:22.161
We're on autopilot and, yeah, what's the point?

00:45:22.161 --> 00:45:34.097
So you're right, I mean, I think for kids to have the opportunity to, to be in an environment where they can, they're free to be themselves, um, is a very powerful opportunity.

00:45:34.097 --> 00:45:49.063
Give them those moments to cry when they're sad or be angry, right um, and still have ground rules and boundaries, right, um, and even some expectations, and also know that they're going to have their own journey, whether it's one that we agree with or not.

00:45:49.275 --> 00:45:51.583
Yeah, and really supporting them through all of that.

00:45:51.583 --> 00:46:00.525
You know, I look at that from the standpoint of our generation and how a lot of the men were raised in that and it's we didn't process emotion.

00:46:00.525 --> 00:46:03.273
Don't cry, I'll give you something to cry about.

00:46:03.273 --> 00:46:10.445
You know that whole mentality which is let's not do that to our men, let's not do that to our boys anymore.

00:46:10.445 --> 00:46:12.456
You know, we know better, let's do better.

00:46:13.518 --> 00:46:21.557
You know, my 17-year-old is the emotional intelligence and communication that that young man brings to the world.

00:46:21.557 --> 00:46:31.396
I just think, watch out, you know, because he is not afraid to have the hard conversations, he's not afraid, you know, because he is not afraid to have the hard conversations, he's not afraid to show emotions, he's not afraid to communicate the stuff that he needs.

00:46:31.396 --> 00:46:39.262
And I find that in my life he's one of my biggest teachers, you know, because he's willing to say the things.

00:46:39.262 --> 00:46:42.074
You know, he's always very respectful and we always have great conversations.

00:46:42.074 --> 00:46:52.585
But it blows my mind because I look back at me when I was 17 and my relationship with my parents and it was like we don't talk about any of the things, none of the things.

00:46:53.195 --> 00:47:00.579
I was raised very religious, and if you're doing it, we're not talking about it, just all of that.

00:47:00.579 --> 00:47:02.284
And I think what a shame.

00:47:02.284 --> 00:47:11.751
And I look at people even nowadays who still come from that kind of school of thought and that's part of why I'm having the conversations.

00:47:12.094 --> 00:47:28.420
I love it, you know, because I hope that people hear that and say, wow, that's crazy that you went through the things and you're willing to say the things about, yeah, this was really hard, or this is how I feel, or this is how this made me feel, instead of just yeah, I got through it and and just glossing over it.

00:47:28.420 --> 00:47:32.699
It's like, no, I couldn't get out of bed, no, I was in the trenches, no, it was messy and we didn't navigate that well.

00:47:32.699 --> 00:47:46.128
But also, you know, telling your story about when you're you're, when Mike did that and you're going in and getting Ivan out, you know, and just protecting that situation and very mama bear and and it's commendable to do that you know you're you're.

00:47:46.128 --> 00:47:48.159
What other choice did I have?

00:47:48.260 --> 00:47:48.420
right.

00:47:48.420 --> 00:48:03.963
I mean, people say you were so strong and and I, um, and I I kind of get tired of hearing that because I, I only knew what I knew how to do and I didn't do it well and I did it messy and I did it in front of people, uh and um again.

00:48:03.963 --> 00:48:15.045
To go back to that that morning waking up and and really being encouraged and told to share this while it was happening, I was prepared for it.

00:48:15.565 --> 00:48:18.780
I had already gone through a lot of training and personal growth.

00:48:18.780 --> 00:48:48.869
I mean reading books and seminars and webinars and and getting certified for myself and to help others, because the greatest thing that we can do for ourselves is learn to love ourselves through everything and really learn to what is going on up in my thinking and how can I influence it so I'm more graceful, more patient and more loving to myself, because that's where it starts and I can be more loving, more patient and more loving to myself, because that's where it starts and I can be more loving and patient and graceful with you.

00:48:48.889 --> 00:48:57.920
What you said right now is so huge, not just the topic of what you went through, but just in everything, being able to really love ourselves and show ourselves grace.

00:48:57.920 --> 00:49:02.235
And when you are able to do that, you're able to then spread that out.

00:49:02.235 --> 00:49:08.318
And I think if people realize that right, people that have so much judgment it's because we're so judgmental of ourselves as well.

00:49:08.318 --> 00:49:17.514
Right, it all starts with internally, and then we externalize that and then go do horrible things to other people because we're horrible to ourselves.

00:49:17.514 --> 00:49:22.242
So learning how to do all of that you know for yourself has been huge.

00:49:22.242 --> 00:49:26.106
Um, wow, wow.

00:49:26.106 --> 00:49:28.731
Your story has completely blown me away.

00:49:28.731 --> 00:49:34.161
Yeah, what does it feel like to be?

00:49:35.083 --> 00:49:45.630
One of the things that you said in your questionnaire was being the casualty of someone else's addiction, and that's fascinating to me because of my own story as well.

00:49:45.630 --> 00:49:47.934
Right, I think my husband is the casualty and my children are the me.

00:49:47.934 --> 00:49:53.164
Because of my own story as well, I think my husband is the casualty and my children are the casualty of my addiction.

00:49:53.164 --> 00:49:54.688
Mine wasn't messy in a way where I was hiding anything.

00:49:54.688 --> 00:50:03.501
I was the fun drunk, and so it didn't maybe seem bad on the outside for a lot of people.

00:50:03.501 --> 00:50:07.699
Although I wasn't plugged, you know I wasn't the parent to my kids that they needed to me to be and all of the things.

00:50:07.699 --> 00:50:13.021
But what does that look like from your side when you say that, that being the casualty of someone else's addiction?

00:50:14.724 --> 00:50:17.235
I feel like we kind of already spoke to it.

00:50:17.235 --> 00:50:22.583
For me that means not really knowing somebody else's journey.

00:50:22.583 --> 00:50:25.646
We'll never know anybody else's journey.

00:50:25.646 --> 00:50:29.577
We'll never know anybody else's journey Again, even somebody so close to us.

00:50:29.697 --> 00:50:49.818
So I had an idea of what addiction might look like, but more textbook, because I haven't had an addiction and I so desperately wanted to fix and help um and and heal Um and I.

00:50:49.818 --> 00:50:56.746
That's not my job, right, and so, um, the version of Mike that I got, I still have to.

00:50:56.746 --> 00:51:01.621
I feel like I still have to love all of who he is and trust that.

00:51:01.621 --> 00:51:13.326
You know, for whatever reason, he chose to drink and he chose to use substances and that impacted the way in which life moved on for us.

00:51:13.326 --> 00:51:23.583
I was a partner in that and in that and especially the way our story kind of unfolded.

00:51:23.583 --> 00:51:28.090
There's a lot of sadness to that and I'm a casualty to that.

00:51:28.150 --> 00:51:59.898
Yeah, I have even some people close to me who, again, I don't speak to any longer would say that I played victim and I've always been a victim and I have a hard time wrapping my head around that because I've really done everything I can to be resilient and to grow beyond this and to fall in love again and give myself permission to have a life that I love and, and so part of what I do with clients, when it's shadow work, is taking like the word victim and looking to see how can I really own that and not hate that part of me.

00:52:00.278 --> 00:52:07.204
Like if you were to call me a victim, like some people have, I would like I would want to defend and say, no, I'm not a victim, right, well, where in that am me a victim, like some people have?

00:52:07.204 --> 00:52:09.891
I would like I would want to defend and say, no, I'm not a victim, right, well, where in that am I a victim?

00:52:09.891 --> 00:52:11.255
And how can, how can I love that part of me?

00:52:11.255 --> 00:52:14.260
Yeah, is really what happens for me around that.

00:52:14.260 --> 00:52:20.822
So, um, yeah, yeah, I think we're all casualties to each other's stories and narratives you're absolutely right.

00:52:21.123 --> 00:52:21.704
you're absolutely right.

00:52:21.704 --> 00:52:28.420
I look at, I look at my journey and just I felt like I was a tornado, and so it wasn't just my family it was like.

00:52:28.420 --> 00:52:35.994
But it doesn't even have to be addiction, it can be other things that you're bringing to the table, that you're a tornado in other people's lives as well.

00:52:35.994 --> 00:52:47.090
I'm curious how people would feel like you were a victim in that situation or how that, how that happens, like, how do how do people feel?

00:52:47.135 --> 00:52:51.224
like I think so.

00:52:51.224 --> 00:53:06.724
It was my, uh, a family member specifically, who I haven't spoken to really since all this has gone down and, um, because I chose to talk about it and write about it very openly on social media and on our caring bridge page again people are looking about it and write about it very openly on social media and on our CaringBridge page.

00:53:07.385 --> 00:53:19.686
Again, people are looking at it and reading what I wrote and following my story and my journey and making decisions about me based on the story and their own experiences.

00:53:19.686 --> 00:53:23.538
Right, so for some people I showed up as a victim.

00:53:23.538 --> 00:53:30.710
For some people, I showed up as someone who is very loving and caring.

00:53:30.710 --> 00:53:36.581
For others, I showed up like that silly man who had a judgment about me getting engaged and the timeline all wrong.

00:53:36.581 --> 00:53:46.385
Everybody will make decisions about us based on their own story and their own experiences and so, yeah, I can't control any of that.

00:53:46.947 --> 00:53:50.400
How do you not let that bother you?

00:53:50.400 --> 00:53:55.898
Or do you, how do you work on not letting that bother you, because I think that's a really big thing.

00:53:55.918 --> 00:54:00.106
Yeah, I will say that I'm ready for a quieter life now.

00:54:00.106 --> 00:54:07.340
For the last several years I've been sharing my story, even when I'm like, okay, I'm getting ready to start dating again.

00:54:07.340 --> 00:54:10.132
And you know, I had always had long term relationships.

00:54:10.132 --> 00:54:13.402
I never really dated and so I kind of would poke fun at that.

00:54:13.402 --> 00:54:26.505
I really had to get comfortable being in my physical body again because part of losing my partner and we had a beautiful life together in all ways and manners I questioned like why wasn't I enough for him?

00:54:26.505 --> 00:54:32.186
And now you know, even intimately I'm by myself I thought I'd go to the ends of the earth with him.

00:54:32.186 --> 00:54:38.518
And so how can I fall in love with me and be okay with me so that maybe someday I could be in relationship with somebody else?

00:54:38.518 --> 00:54:41.724
And and I shared all that very openly.

00:54:42.186 --> 00:54:58.646
And now that I'm on this in this next phase of my life, whatever that means new job, I closed my business, new relationship, like really again in a matter of several months I don't know that I need to tell my story anymore.

00:54:58.646 --> 00:55:03.592
I just want my story to be mine, if that makes sense.

00:55:03.592 --> 00:55:15.282
It does, because it almost feels like now it would be forced to share and and again, I I have, I don't have a bunch of followers, but I have a lot of people who do follow me on social media that I've never even met.

00:55:15.282 --> 00:55:21.800
I think I don't know that I want that attention anymore or and I don't think I ever really needed it.00:55:21.800 --> 00:55:32.605


Um, it just was this snowball effect and I left myself open to people poking in and watching and paying attention.00:55:32.605 --> 00:55:43.097


Again, I'm not pretending like I was some big, you know important person, but people have cared and I love that they care, and I really want to get a little quieter and a little bit smaller.00:55:43.579 --> 00:55:47.264


I think that that's huge and I think also, you know when you're called to do something.00:55:47.264 --> 00:55:50.889


Maybe you don't realize the full picture of that.00:55:50.889 --> 00:55:55.487


You know so, like that voice is telling you you're going to share throughout this right.00:55:55.487 --> 00:56:17.880


The universe is telling you you're going to do this and maybe you don't realize all of the things which is I'm putting this out on display People are going to feel like they can give me their opinions for things Like when you listen to the universe as you know, hopefully, a lot of us do sometimes it puts you in those positions where it's like, well, shit, I didn't agree to that you know, because that's how I feel like with this podcast.00:56:17.940 --> 00:56:30.260


It's like, okay, we're doing a podcast now, and when we first started talking about it and getting all the things finalized, it's like, okay, I, yep, I, I feel like this is right In my knowing.00:56:30.260 --> 00:56:36.759


I know that this is right, I know that I'm meant to make an impact and that I'm meant to have the conversations that are are open and vulnerable and raw and honest, which I love.00:56:36.759 --> 00:56:39.722


But then they're like, okay, well then there's going to be cameras.00:56:39.722 --> 00:56:48.735


And I'm like, no, no, no, we listen to podcasts, we don't look at podcasts no no In 2025, we watch podcasts which I'm like, oh shit, I don't want to do that.00:56:48.994 --> 00:56:51.956


You know, but I'm like that's what the universe has me doing or it's.00:56:51.956 --> 00:56:53.543


You know the comments thing.00:56:53.543 --> 00:56:58.025


I made an agreement with my team that I'm not interested in the comments.00:56:58.025 --> 00:57:11.514


Like I hope to know that this makes a positive impact, but I'm not interested in getting twisted up in that because that to me takes away from what my work is If I have somebody's negative anything in the back of my head, or even the positive, for that matter.00:57:11.835 --> 00:57:13.021


Or the positive, and you're absolutely right.00:57:13.021 --> 00:57:21.757


My nieces were over a couple of days ago and they didn't know about the podcast, and so then they started opening some of the videos and they were like, oh, and they started reading me comments.00:57:21.757 --> 00:57:24.525


I'm like no, no, no, no, no, I'm like we don't do comments.00:57:24.525 --> 00:57:30.003


And they said, but these are good and I'm like I don't care, like I love that.00:57:30.003 --> 00:57:40.498


People resonate with that and I want to empower, you know, women specifically, but also all people, to really have their own voice and to feel open and all of the things I want to be able to support and everything.00:57:40.498 --> 00:57:53.240


But if it takes away from my message, because I have those little things, because, unfortunately, people feel really bold in front of a keyboard when they don't have to look you in the eyes and tell you the things.00:57:53.240 --> 00:58:03.382


Also, you know you have to kind of earn a spot at my table for me to really take your criticism or your feedback, and so, for people that haven't earned a spot at my table, I just I can't.00:58:03.382 --> 00:58:05.706


I can't get twisted up in that and I encourage that for everybody.00:58:05.706 --> 00:58:15.396


You know you shouldn't be taking advice and feedback and criticisms from people that, either, haven't earned a spot at your table or aren't going, you know, aren't in the the world that you want to get into.00:58:15.597 --> 00:58:21.496


You know, I think so many people listen to the chatter and the noise and to me it doesn't matter.00:58:21.496 --> 00:58:26.208


You know, for people that think you should get married again, you shouldn't get married again where is the right?00:58:26.208 --> 00:58:27.630


Who cares?00:58:27.630 --> 00:58:31.079


You're not the one that gets up and walks in my shoes every day.00:58:31.079 --> 00:58:34.976


You know, like how do you even explain to someone the journey that you're in?00:58:34.976 --> 00:58:41.057


It's so uniquely yours, you know, and to have all of the steps that you've taken to get to where you are.00:58:41.057 --> 00:58:42.800


Don't judge me.00:58:42.800 --> 00:58:46.927


You know I've been called to tell my story because you know, don't judge me.00:58:46.927 --> 00:58:56.121


I've been called to tell my story because people will benefit from that, people who have lost a loved one to suicide, who weren't able to make sense of it.00:58:56.121 --> 00:58:59.072


That's a huge thing and it's powerful that you were willing to put yourself out there and share that.00:58:59.072 --> 00:59:03.403


But for people that feel like they have a nasty comment, just keep it to yourselves.00:59:04.226 --> 00:59:11.181


And they don't, and they don't, and they don't, and, unfortunately, most people have been really encouraging and grateful and I get a lot of.00:59:11.181 --> 00:59:26.545


Even still, I get private messages and emails and texts from people that are kind of you know, three steps outside of my sphere that said, hey, I just want you to know I've been following your journey and yeah, this is what it's meant for me, and I shared it with my husband, who was suicidal and he went and got help.00:59:26.565 --> 00:59:30.289


I mean, I, story after story like that, yeah, um, and, and so.00:59:30.289 --> 00:59:36.371


For that I'm grateful that I've been able to be impactful, um and and.00:59:36.371 --> 00:59:49.217


Even when somebody is turned off by us or angry with us, that's still um the universe, I think, working through me to give them an opportunity to take a look at themselves in their lives.00:59:49.217 --> 00:59:52.063


Whether they do or not, sure, I don't know.00:59:52.063 --> 00:59:55.960


Yeah, but that took a long time for me to get okay with that.00:59:55.960 --> 01:00:01.317


That I I'm not always um a role model in the way that I'd like to see myself.01:00:01.317 --> 01:00:10.061


Sometimes it means that I have to be an example, so someone has the opportunity to look at themselves and what they're projecting on top of me.01:00:10.202 --> 01:00:13.478


Yeah, yeah, and then just working on not taking that on yourself.01:00:13.478 --> 01:00:22.007


Yeah, right, because it's not yours to carry, right, excellent, well, thank you, karen for coming and spending time today and for being willing to be so vulnerable.01:00:22.275 --> 01:00:24.000


Yeah, no, I really really appreciate it.01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:41.282


My may I suggest for this week I do a may I suggest is going to be to really be plugged in when raising our kiddos, to be able to feel comfortable to come and have the conversation, so that we're not raising our young ones to feel like they have to go it alone.01:00:41.282 --> 01:00:49.166


You know that they can't, that they're being weak if they reach out for help or if they bring up things and talk like we should be willing to talk about anything.01:00:49.166 --> 01:01:01.320


You know there's not a single thing in my house that's off limits and I encourage other people to have that same vulnerability and openness in their own houses and you have to be able to foster that with your kiddos.01:01:01.320 --> 01:01:07.259


They're not going to do it for you, so you have to be willing to have the difficult conversations about all the things.01:01:07.259 --> 01:01:10.005


So that's my May I Suggest for this week.01:01:10.005 --> 01:01:11.775


That's our time for today.01:01:12.277 --> 01:01:14.702


If you have questions or suggestions, send us an email.01:01:14.702 --> 01:01:23.778


Our email address is ladies at letsgetnakedpodcastcom, please do all of the things to support the pod, which is follow, share, rate and review.01:01:23.778 --> 01:01:26.847


Also, we would love for you to follow us on Instagram.01:01:26.847 --> 01:01:28.240


Apparently, that's a whole thing.01:01:28.240 --> 01:01:30.259


Catch you next time.01:01:30.259 --> 01:01:30.961


That's a wrap.01:01:30.961 --> 01:01:40.000


I'd love to help you get vulnerable.01:01:40.000 --> 01:01:41.101


Let's get naked.