Embracing Vulnerability, Identity, and Family Bonds Through Personal Growth

Transcript

WEBVTT

00:00:07.171 --> 00:00:08.913
I'd love to help you get vulnerable.

00:00:08.913 --> 00:00:09.994
Let's get naked.

00:00:09.994 --> 00:00:15.627
Welcome to the let's Get Naked podcast.

00:00:15.627 --> 00:00:19.603
Today we're getting naked with my brother, keith Westendorf.

00:00:19.603 --> 00:00:32.472
It's a little bit weird to say that, because obviously because he's my brother and that's weird, but so is our entire relationship and family, and so we're going to kind of dive into some of that today, so welcome.

00:00:32.679 --> 00:00:34.085
Thank you, it's great to be here.

00:00:34.085 --> 00:00:34.881
Yeah, it is.

00:00:36.063 --> 00:00:43.174
So some of the things that I wanted to talk about are just kind of our relationship as we've, you know, become adults.

00:00:43.174 --> 00:00:58.612
Relationship as we've, you know, become adults, and some of the stuff from you know when we were kids, things that go into making you who you are as a person, as well as you know, things that you're doing for yourself to level up in your life and be the best version of you that you can be.

00:00:58.612 --> 00:01:04.820
You know, the podcast is about vulnerability and really being able to be able to connect with people.

00:01:04.820 --> 00:01:06.200
I think a lot of the stuff that we're going to talk about really offers really being able to be able to connect with people.

00:01:06.200 --> 00:01:15.290
I think a lot of the stuff that we're going to talk about really offers a lifeline to people, because a lot of people feel like they're on an island by themselves with the stuff that they deal with.

00:01:15.730 --> 00:01:16.740
You've dealt with lots of shit.

00:01:16.740 --> 00:01:21.792
We've dealt with lots of shit, you know, in our upbringing and other things.

00:01:21.792 --> 00:01:37.331
You know we laugh and joke around about that and there's a lot of fun that comes with that, but I think, as we've gone through our lives together, it's interesting to watch other people from the outside see that and really be able to connect with that, because we are so open and vulnerable about stuff.

00:01:37.331 --> 00:01:57.751
You know, I think it's pretty exciting to continue to learn together as siblings, and you know just how to navigate really emotional intelligence, how to be amazing to each other, how to say hey, you messed up and you hurt my feelings or like any of that kind of stuff, and so I think that that's a big part of stuff that I wanted to talk about today.

00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:04.343
So you know, if you don't mind, I'm just going to kind of dive into Go right ahead.

00:02:04.343 --> 00:02:13.289
Yeah, so for our listeners, you know, our family dynamic was one where our parents, who are still married, had five kids.

00:02:13.289 --> 00:02:29.991
We have my oldest sister, then my next oldest sister, then I'm the middle child, then we have my brother, brennan, and then Keith is the baby, which is pretty funny, and if I call him Tony it's because I call him Tony, and so it's really weird to be calling him Keith right now.

00:02:29.991 --> 00:02:34.651
It's usually what I reserve for when he's in trouble, which is once a year.

00:02:34.860 --> 00:02:36.746
Exactly Once a year, whether he needs it or not.

00:02:36.746 --> 00:02:40.522
So it is kind of weird to be doing calling him Keith right now because he's definitely not in trouble.

00:02:40.522 --> 00:02:56.014
But so with that dynamic you know, we were, we were born in South Dakota on a, on a farm which has a lot of interesting stuff tied in with that move to Colorado.

00:02:56.014 --> 00:02:57.584
How old were you when we moved to Colorado?

00:02:57.925 --> 00:03:00.072
I was a month out from turning three.

00:03:00.353 --> 00:03:01.899
Okay, so didn't.

00:03:01.899 --> 00:03:03.181
You probably didn't even remember South Dakota.

00:03:03.262 --> 00:03:03.923
Absolutely nothing.

00:03:04.204 --> 00:03:06.627
So I was nine when we moved to Colorado.

00:03:06.627 --> 00:03:14.046
We were what I would say we were definitely not.

00:03:14.046 --> 00:03:20.247
We were poor, I don't know how to say that in a nice way that definitely shaped who I am as a human being.

00:03:20.247 --> 00:03:21.753
I know that it did, as you as well.

00:03:21.753 --> 00:03:27.552
I know that it was different because of the age gap between our oldest, who's 10 years older than you.

00:03:27.552 --> 00:03:35.051
Are right, obviously things get different as we're moving out of the house and they have less than five kids to be dealing with and whatever.

00:03:35.180 --> 00:03:54.141
But a big, a big topic that I want to talk about today and I know that you know we've mentioned this, but would be kind of you being gay what that looked like coming out in the house, what that looked like for all the way through right Like, I think, people that are nowadays we celebrate that.

00:03:54.141 --> 00:03:56.586
I don't think that was how it was back then.

00:03:56.586 --> 00:04:01.622
Obviously, our family was very our parents are very religious.

00:04:01.622 --> 00:04:10.145
You know I'm not religious, I know that you're not religious as an adult, but that was definitely a big component of our upbringing, you know, and had a big effect on things.

00:04:10.145 --> 00:04:14.903
But I think it's interesting because I don't think a lot of young people realize maybe they do.

00:04:14.903 --> 00:04:19.661
I don't know the struggles that we go through to kind of lay the groundwork for stuff.

00:04:19.661 --> 00:04:20.201
You know what I mean?

00:04:20.201 --> 00:04:24.408
People that were gay 50 years ago, obviously not.

00:04:24.408 --> 00:04:28.415
You know, obviously before your time had a very different struggle than you did, right.

00:04:32.641 --> 00:04:36.007
Because, you came out 25 years ago-ish, yeah right at 25, 26 years, Right.

00:04:36.427 --> 00:04:49.221
So you know it's like I tell Wiley, like if you're gay, you could just tell me there's no really coming out, like it's not.

00:04:49.221 --> 00:04:50.064
We don't live in a world like that think.

00:04:50.064 --> 00:05:08.487
I think there's a religious component that still brings that in for people nowadays, which I think is extremely unfortunate, and for me, that's a big part of what I want to talk to you about, because I think, um, I think we still do have in our, in our current society, people that are not okay with coming out, people who have religious parents, who make them feel less than or that there's something wrong with them, which to me is an absolute shame.

00:05:08.487 --> 00:05:10.862
Like it, just you, you know how I feel about that.

00:05:10.862 --> 00:05:11.423
It gets me.

00:05:11.863 --> 00:05:47.713
Mama bear comes out in in a protective mode for you, um, and so I, you know, being able to talk about that and being able to have other people that are, you know, younger, people that maybe haven't done that, just kind of have an experience, you know a story that they can relate to, maybe some tips and things that you're doing, some things that you are still healing from, you know, I mean, that's a, that's a lifelong journey for stuff you know we get, we get messed up as kids with, you know, with all sorts of different things, and then it's you don't even realize that you're needing to kind of fix those things in yourself.

00:05:47.713 --> 00:05:52.545
You know, and I think you're on a on a path where you absolutely are doing that.

00:05:52.545 --> 00:05:55.432
You know, and that's to me it's fun to see from the outside.

00:05:55.432 --> 00:05:58.610
You know, and I and I respect the work that you're doing on yourself.

00:05:58.610 --> 00:06:06.290
You understand that I'm doing work on myself and I just don't even think I really have anybody that's in my inner circle that isn't working on themselves in a way.

00:06:06.290 --> 00:06:16.187
That's like pretty, pretty neat, you know, because, yeah, it's hard stuff but it's also, you know, being able to share that with each other, being able to not have the shame and the guilt associated with that.

00:06:16.247 --> 00:06:37.540
I think, you know, for us we were raised with truckloads of shame and guilt and all of the things you know, and I've had an opportunity to speak with mom more about about that stuff recently and she's telling me stories about stuff, that of how she was raised by her parents and it was absolutely hardwired into her as well, you know.

00:06:37.540 --> 00:06:51.831
So it's like that's that's helping me be able to show her some grace in in the situation as well, because when you realize that your parents are really just doing the best that they can you know, um, which we all are uh, it makes it.

00:06:51.831 --> 00:06:56.247
It makes it easier to digest because they're not some horrible animals.

00:06:56.247 --> 00:07:06.399
So I realize that we all have things that they should have really done differently, but when you realize that they're just doing the best, that they can you know, with what they have, it does allow you to show them some grace for stuff.

00:07:06.519 --> 00:07:07.963
So you know.

00:07:07.963 --> 00:07:18.192
My first question to you is how old were you when you realized that you were gay, and is there a special memory or experience of that realization that comes to mind for you?

00:07:21.980 --> 00:07:28.841
That's a little bit of an extended answer, only because I didn't really quite understand what that was.

00:07:29.182 --> 00:08:27.314
What we were taught, uh, in the religion and religious beliefs, is that being gay is completely wrong and that you can't like somebody of the same gender and that you have to fight that if you ever have those urges and this and that and whatever, and that's solely based on, like, two scriptures that are misinterpreted and whatever, and after everything has been switched from language to language to language and rewritten and who knows where that even originated to start with, sure, but I remember having those feelings when I was younger and being attracted to other boys and other men or other boys at the time, because I was a boy not going for men, um, and then it kind of came to a head, kind of, when the internet we started getting the internet when I was 15, 16, and that opened up a new world of being able to chat with people and learn and have experiences and and all of those things, right, and things that I never learned as a child.

00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:34.889
I never learned about what my body was going through with puberty, right, I never learned what sex really.

00:08:34.889 --> 00:08:40.655
I mean, I understood because my friends would tell me, but when you're learning things from other similar age friends.

00:08:41.138 --> 00:08:41.620
No one knows.

00:08:41.620 --> 00:08:42.363
Nobody knows what's going on.

00:08:42.363 --> 00:08:43.447
We didn't have the internet back then.

00:08:43.447 --> 00:08:53.597
No, I mean, I don't think kids or people of the younger generation understand, like if you didn't know, you just didn't know yeah, and you're relying on other people who probably don't know you wonder, right?

00:08:53.618 --> 00:08:57.134
so somebody gets a nugget which is all bullshit, because parents never were honest.

00:08:57.134 --> 00:09:00.283
I mean, we got lied to about the Easter Bunny and Santa and like all of that stuff.

00:09:00.283 --> 00:09:06.153
So you get like one nugget and then you come tell your friends and then they're supposed to like that's supposed to be how you get your information.

00:09:06.153 --> 00:09:07.315
I mean, that's outrageous.

00:09:07.860 --> 00:09:09.725
So that opened up a whole new world for me.

00:09:09.725 --> 00:09:21.422
I, because I didn't really have any idea I started experimenting about 15, 16 and discovering like, okay, that's, that makes sense, that's what I like, that's who I am.

00:09:21.422 --> 00:09:30.836
And well, it was probably younger than that, because I came out at the end of my school year in ninth grade, so I was still 14.

00:09:30.836 --> 00:09:33.306
Yeah, are we five years?

00:09:33.346 --> 00:09:35.192
apart Six Six.

00:09:35.192 --> 00:09:35.936
Yeah, that makes sense.

00:09:35.936 --> 00:09:40.750
Cause I lived in Washington when we, when I was 20, and I remember getting a call from Nancy about that.

00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:43.885
Yeah, so that was that also opened up.

00:09:43.885 --> 00:09:48.961
It's really weird, because coming out was a little bit different.

00:09:48.961 --> 00:09:51.408
It was obviously full of shame and full of.

00:09:51.748 --> 00:09:52.330
Oh, I can't.

00:09:52.330 --> 00:09:58.873
You got to hold onto this secret and this burden because it's wrong Everything that I've been told it's wrong.

00:09:58.873 --> 00:10:00.221
I can't be this.

00:10:00.221 --> 00:10:17.659
And you think like, oh God, and you also hear stories because children will, would get kicked out of their homes, right, and disowned, right, and like and commit suicide because, okay, well, I have this, I can't tell anybody, I'm going to commit suicide.

00:10:17.659 --> 00:10:22.307
Or I am this, right, and I did tell somebody and then everybody rejected me.

00:10:22.307 --> 00:10:28.003
I'm going to commit suicide somebody, and then everybody rejected me, I'm going to commit suicide.

00:10:28.023 --> 00:10:35.365
And that's one thing, even though overall it was kind of a weird process and the things that that happened after that were very religious based.

00:10:35.365 --> 00:10:38.816
But I will I will say that that never happened to me.

00:10:38.816 --> 00:10:41.923
I never worried about mom and dad kicking me out.

00:10:41.923 --> 00:11:02.145
I never worried about being disowned by them, that actually there was one day, like the week prior, that mom's like you have a secret, you're holding on to something and not in a you better tell me now, like I know you're doing something, you're hiding something from me, but she's like you, you have something going on.

00:11:02.145 --> 00:11:04.769
And I was like, oh god, okay.

00:11:05.311 --> 00:11:11.208
So I sent her an email this is all new stuff for me, so this is actually quite lovely to hear this story.

00:11:11.288 --> 00:11:17.477
That's the lovely part about having technology start at that point, because then I was like I don't.

00:11:17.477 --> 00:11:22.508
We weren't taught how to sit there and say hey, mom and dad, this is what's going on, whatever.

00:11:22.508 --> 00:11:29.190
We never had communication in that regard, so that night it was my last day of school.

00:11:29.940 --> 00:11:31.384
On your freshman year.

00:11:31.767 --> 00:11:32.509
Of my freshman year.

00:11:32.568 --> 00:11:32.789
Okay.

00:11:33.640 --> 00:11:44.767
And I was going to private school at that point and I sent an email to mom's work account because having cell phones with email capabilities and whatever wasn't a thing.

00:11:44.826 --> 00:11:47.412
Yeah, so I sent her the email.

00:11:47.412 --> 00:11:53.727
She I didn't get a phone call at school or anything like that.

00:11:53.727 --> 00:11:56.620
She picked me up from school and I get in the car and I'm just like, oh God, I don't know what's going to happen here.

00:11:56.620 --> 00:12:02.232
And she turns over cause in the email and I kind of I don't remember exactly what I said.

00:12:02.232 --> 00:12:04.287
But basically here's my secret.

00:12:04.287 --> 00:12:07.203
I'm gay, I hope you can still love me, something to that point.

00:12:07.203 --> 00:12:13.546
And I get in the car and she turns to, turns to me and says do you really think we would stop loving you?

00:12:14.568 --> 00:12:16.214
Wow, I didn't know that.

00:12:16.475 --> 00:12:20.645
So it's it's not something I am like sharing with everybody.

00:12:20.686 --> 00:12:33.568
And it's also like just something that is not a regular part of standard conversation no for sure, but that's important, that's important information, because that makes me, that makes me feel better.

00:12:33.568 --> 00:12:35.775
Yeah, yeah, it is so that's where it's.

00:12:35.956 --> 00:12:40.465
It's a little bit difficult because it started off that way and then it went into.

00:12:40.465 --> 00:12:50.446
Okay, now we're gonna get you gay conversion therapy I just can't even imagine, so and that was what do you do at that point?

00:12:50.446 --> 00:12:53.552
Like I'm I think I'm 15, 14 still.

00:12:53.552 --> 00:13:08.514
I think that happened during the summer, so we went directly into that and I think that guy was just scamming people out of money he's probably games I'm pretty sure, like, like, and I really, really, really hope that he wasn't using it as a front to touch little boys, Right?

00:13:08.956 --> 00:13:12.907
I understand this isn't the Catholic church, but maybe he was a part of that, right?

00:13:12.907 --> 00:13:21.056
So, going into that, it was okay, we're doing therapy and we're talking about what's happening or whatever.

00:13:21.056 --> 00:13:25.289
We never actually got around to doing anything therapy related.

00:13:25.289 --> 00:13:29.681
We would talk about school and how obviously I was in school, cause then I was talking about school, sure.

00:13:29.681 --> 00:13:48.601
So then it was like, okay, we're doing four sessions and this was not close to our home, we lived on the East side and this was way on the West side and and I think it was in like church offices or something, and we would go over there and we would just chat.

00:13:48.601 --> 00:14:03.066
And we would just chat and after excuse me, after the, after the first four sessions or whatever, I finally got up the gall to be like look, nothing's changing this guy and I are just having like hanging out, right, you're paying him a lot of money to just hang out with me, right?

00:14:03.546 --> 00:14:10.534
um, and this isn't a phase, this isn't uh, oh, I'm experimenting, I'm a whatever, like this isn't happening.

00:14:10.534 --> 00:14:11.316
And they dropped it.

00:14:11.316 --> 00:14:12.383
It wasn't.

00:14:12.383 --> 00:14:27.089
Uh, well, no, we're, we've got to continue forcing this and we got to do this and that, whatever, they just dropped it now, that's good when going into other things again, going into not really understanding sexuality and what I'm doing with myself and whatever.

00:14:27.149 --> 00:14:38.148
I was doing stupid shit, sure, but it wasn't because I was trying to be rebellious and trying to do whatever I was exploring and I didn't know any better and I didn't have those boundaries or anything.

00:14:38.601 --> 00:14:41.419
Well, what you do, regardless of what your sexual orientation is, I think Exactly.

00:14:41.419 --> 00:14:50.104
You're going through puberty and you're exploring and you're experimenting with things, and so I don't think that that's anything that's unusual at all, especially for that age.

00:14:50.245 --> 00:14:53.216
Like hormones are raging when you're 14, 15, 16.

00:14:53.296 --> 00:14:56.124
I think I started puberty when I was 12 or 13.

00:14:56.124 --> 00:14:58.467
So a little bit earlier than average.

00:14:58.467 --> 00:15:09.205
But when you look at that, it's like I got punished for doing these things that I was just trying to figure out because I didn't know any better.

00:15:09.205 --> 00:15:13.653
I didn't know anything, and so it got went into.

00:15:13.653 --> 00:15:31.017
Okay, now I'm experimenting with this guy and experimenting with that guy and like I don't know, like maybe it's not great that they're a little bit older than I am, maybe it's like whatever, but getting punished for that stuff too, and not like I was getting beaten, let's let me be clear about that.

00:15:31.037 --> 00:15:31.758
They got that all out on me.

00:15:31.758 --> 00:15:32.840
Yeah, let's be clear about that.

00:15:32.840 --> 00:15:35.337
Thank you for taking that hit for the team You're welcome.

00:15:35.359 --> 00:15:42.690
Yeah, but it was in the form of I didn't get my driver's permit until I was 17 and a half to base it was.

00:15:42.690 --> 00:16:03.501
It felt like an eternity, but that was the whole thing of like I didn't know what I was doing, Like I was just trying things and whatever, and then to have that punishment, even though it wasn't that big of a deal, but it was kind of a big deal because everybody around me was driving and I was working part-time after school and not close to home.

00:16:03.623 --> 00:16:06.926
I can't even imagine I shouldn't say that I grew up in the same house that you did.

00:16:06.926 --> 00:16:10.447
I remember getting punished for all sorts of stuff that I would never punish my children for.

00:16:10.447 --> 00:16:17.326
Also, I run a completely different program, which, again, I don't think that they I've gotten to the point in my life where I feel like they did the best that they could.

00:16:17.326 --> 00:16:28.284
But I look at that and it's like the stuff that I got punished for is outrageous, you know.

00:16:28.284 --> 00:16:32.437
So the idea that, like, you're messing around with other boys and you're getting punished for that is outrageous, you know and so.

00:16:32.437 --> 00:16:40.225
But but I am happy to hear that the whole like of course we still love you and like all of that stuff, because I didn't know that component of it.

00:16:40.307 --> 00:17:06.987
I thought that there was much more like I realized the whole, you know, convert conversion therapy, which is, you know, I don't know, I, I just I don't understand how, growing up in a place where it's like you know that, whatever who you are at your core, right, because you're gay and I've known you were gay since you were before kindergarten, right, I mean that's, I don't know how everybody else had their head in the sand and was, you know, like, oh my God, he's gay.

00:17:06.987 --> 00:17:08.491
I'm like, yeah, I got to go back to work.

00:17:08.813 --> 00:17:10.501
I'm glad that you guys are figuring this out.

00:17:10.501 --> 00:17:21.508
Like yes, but um and it couldn't have been even amongst our siblings if mom and dad had no idea, and because they had five children and had their heads in the sand, like working so much and trying to take care of a family.

00:17:21.508 --> 00:17:27.914
I understand that, but the bare minimum all of my siblings should have known because agreed, what the hell was I doing?

00:17:28.055 --> 00:17:29.500
I was baking, right, but what was?

00:17:29.500 --> 00:17:30.765
What was the other reactions?

00:17:30.765 --> 00:17:35.683
Because I know that when, when Nancy called me, I was, I remember exactly where I was.

00:17:35.683 --> 00:17:37.613
I was living in Washington, I was at work.

00:17:37.613 --> 00:17:40.903
They made a big deal about you have an emergency phone call and like whatever.

00:17:40.903 --> 00:17:43.586
And I get on the phone and she's crying and she's telling me Keith is gay.

00:17:43.586 --> 00:17:46.250
And I'm like, yeah, no shit, can I get back to work?

00:17:46.250 --> 00:17:48.214
This is what you've pulled me out of a meeting for.

00:17:48.214 --> 00:17:49.943
Like I thought it was an emergency.

00:17:49.943 --> 00:17:52.510
I've known that for 10 years, you know.

00:17:52.510 --> 00:17:54.682
So, like, what was the other reactions from?

00:17:54.682 --> 00:17:56.627
From Maureen and Nancy and Brennan?

00:17:56.627 --> 00:17:57.931
Brennan still lived at home at that point.

00:17:57.951 --> 00:18:01.226
Yeah, because he's only a few years older than you.

00:18:01.226 --> 00:18:01.605
Three years older.

00:18:01.605 --> 00:18:02.828
He's three years older than I am, okay.

00:18:03.329 --> 00:18:05.954
So yeah, he would have probably been like a junior or senior in high school.

00:18:07.380 --> 00:18:10.609
Yeah, he was probably a senior, or that might have been his graduating year.

00:18:10.609 --> 00:18:11.030
Okay.

00:18:11.030 --> 00:18:13.205
But I don't remember him being around.

00:18:13.205 --> 00:18:13.827
I don't remember.

00:18:13.827 --> 00:18:16.305
I vaguely remember it was.

00:18:16.305 --> 00:18:18.730
Doesn't change anything, You're my brother.

00:18:18.730 --> 00:18:20.134
I love you Absolutely Nothing.

00:18:20.134 --> 00:18:31.920
Nancy, nancy, I don't really remember anything in particular about like us having a conversation maybe we did, but there's just nothing that stems out from that Maureen.

00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:39.133
I remember she was dating Michael and like not even dating, they had just kind of met Dating Michael or Marcus.

00:18:39.133 --> 00:18:40.355
Michael no.

00:18:40.920 --> 00:18:44.107
I think it was Marcus, because she would have only only been.

00:18:44.709 --> 00:18:45.971
Well, it doesn't matter, it was Marcus.

00:18:46.132 --> 00:18:49.569
Yeah, Because Michael was when she moved down to Colorado or down to Arizona.

00:18:49.569 --> 00:18:51.925
And that was after that.

00:18:53.109 --> 00:18:55.067
That's right, Because she was eight years old.

00:18:55.067 --> 00:18:56.243
No, she would have been.

00:18:56.243 --> 00:18:57.588
I think it was Michael.

00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:05.680
I distinctly remember Michael Because they had just met Could have been, and I think she just got come back from new mexico okay and they had just met.

00:19:05.740 --> 00:19:23.887
They were just friends at that point and I remember her mercury grand marquee boat, that I don't know why those three things stick out, but I remember we had some loose discussion in the car of like, no matter who, what you are, or who you are or whatever, we still love you.

00:19:23.887 --> 00:19:28.494
And that was the only time that I remember Michael not being a piece of shit.

00:19:30.002 --> 00:19:47.051
And then things went down Well and then they started dating so but that the unanimous was decision or conversation was okay, okay, like whatever that doesn't change anything, and then just kind of went on to live life.

00:19:47.051 --> 00:20:04.670
But it always kind of felt and maybe it's because I'm doing it to myself, but because I was never really dating anybody and I never was in a relationship or anything like that but it always just kind of felt like here you are, this is your gay part, over here we don't talk or discuss that or see that side.

00:20:04.670 --> 00:20:06.385
You're a good human being.

00:20:06.385 --> 00:20:09.509
We love you and whatever, primarily with mom and dad.

00:20:09.509 --> 00:20:22.247
Everybody else is like, especially you, because we've lived so close for so long that I can talk about anything, but even with Brennan not that I'm getting as vulgar and crude as I would with you, but it doesn't matter.

00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:53.333
We're all grown-ass adults over 40 yeah who cares, even my nieces and nephew, primarily your son, like I can bring up stuff and it's not again not getting vulgar and cruel, but maybe, maybe with your eldest yeah, because, well, she's 28, she's a grown-ass woman and it's and I try not to be too crazy, like I try to reel it in a little bit, I understand, but just being at that point where I recognize that there are other children.

00:20:53.333 --> 00:20:56.088
All these children have grown up with me, knowing that I'm gay.

00:20:56.128 --> 00:20:56.309
Yeah.

00:20:56.960 --> 00:20:59.702
Not a single one of them was like oh my God.

00:20:59.803 --> 00:21:00.805
I can't believe it.

00:21:01.005 --> 00:21:04.429
And maybe John doesn't know fully or understand.

00:21:04.429 --> 00:21:06.750
He's a child, right, and I don't have anybody in my life.

00:21:06.750 --> 00:21:08.534
Well, no, he knows because he was at Christmas.

00:21:08.534 --> 00:21:08.773
He was so.

00:21:15.544 --> 00:21:26.777
No, but that was a whole thing because that was just a year and a half ago and that was the first time that you had brought a guy around, you know, and you're 40, you know.

00:21:26.777 --> 00:21:31.826
So that also is a whole thing that I think, like you said, you having okay, here's my life as your brother, as your son, as your uncle, as your whatever yes, I'm gay but whatever.

00:21:31.826 --> 00:21:44.904
But it never has been something that you've brought that into the family for stuff, and I don't know if that's, you know, by design, or if that's just not something you've been comfortable with, or I think there are two parts of that.

00:21:45.045 --> 00:21:49.441
So the first part of it is never having anybody around long enough.

00:21:49.441 --> 00:21:54.016
I've dated one guy and we weren't like exclusive or anything.

00:21:54.016 --> 00:22:01.805
For like four months We'd go out on dates and do whatever, and outside of that my dating life has been basically non-existent.

00:22:01.805 --> 00:22:04.761
So that was the the probably the biggest portion of it.

00:22:04.761 --> 00:22:11.669
I know if I had met somebody earlier and was really were, was really in like thinking, yeah, this is going to be long term.

00:22:11.709 --> 00:22:13.519
We've been dating for six months or more or whatever.

00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:34.189
The other part of it, too, is the conversation that I remember having with you and or Nancy I don't remember it could have been both of not bringing somebody around every month or so, every three months or so, like with the kids, because the kids were a lot younger and whatever, definitely, nancy, I don't give a shit.

00:22:34.249 --> 00:22:34.932
Parade them through.

00:22:35.152 --> 00:22:37.781
Have a gay pride parade through my living room.

00:22:37.821 --> 00:22:39.807
I don't give a shit and it wasn't necessarily that.

00:22:40.429 --> 00:22:45.643
That was like I didn't find that problematic, right, I completely understood and I agreed.

00:22:45.643 --> 00:22:53.125
I also don't want somebody to be introduced and then like, oh nope, we broke up like that's a lot of drama.

00:22:53.125 --> 00:22:54.148
Do you feel like it would have been?

00:22:54.189 --> 00:22:54.671
different if you.

00:22:54.671 --> 00:23:01.443
If it was straight though, like is that a conversation that was had with brennan or with marine, or you know what I?

00:23:01.443 --> 00:23:03.690
Mean like or that's specific to you being gay.

00:23:03.690 --> 00:23:05.503
See that's yeah, right so.

00:23:05.503 --> 00:23:11.167
So that's that's for me, the, the piece of it where it's like being able to really see okay, what does that do to you?

00:23:11.167 --> 00:23:15.365
Yes, I, I see that you understand the logistics of that, but it's not the.

00:23:15.365 --> 00:23:16.991
The playing field is not even.

00:23:16.991 --> 00:23:17.534
No, do you?

00:23:17.554 --> 00:23:28.756
know what I mean which, which is bullshit to me yeah that I, I believe that you know like that to me, I think, is what kind of provides some separation there, which I don't love?

00:23:28.875 --> 00:23:32.670
yeah, you know what I mean, but again, maybe because I've known that you were gay since you were came out of.

00:23:32.670 --> 00:23:52.421
I'm not even gonna say it somebody already said it this morning and it grossed me out oh no, I'm not starting, I'm trying to hold on to my, my gold star I love it um, but no, I, that's the other part is like the speculation of that, and okay, would it have been different if it were with a woman?

00:23:52.942 --> 00:23:53.284
I would.

00:23:53.284 --> 00:23:55.750
I would hope that it would be treated the same.

00:23:55.750 --> 00:24:04.452
And it wasn't because I was gay, it was because they didn't want children being attached to somebody new, regardless of if it was a man or a woman or anything in between.

00:24:04.452 --> 00:24:19.768
Of we just want, like, be sure, be sure that they, you want them in your life and that life, and that you would like to continue on, and all of that and not just like, oh well, flavor of the week is here regardless.

00:24:19.768 --> 00:24:22.929
That's what I would hope it was, cause I don't.

00:24:22.929 --> 00:24:27.188
I never got the, the sensation that it was oh, you're gay.

00:24:27.188 --> 00:24:30.102
We must not bring other gay men around too much.

00:24:30.102 --> 00:24:31.405
I brought my gay friends around.

00:24:31.968 --> 00:24:32.891
Who cares Like?

00:24:33.090 --> 00:24:33.231
eh.

00:24:33.231 --> 00:24:34.916
So it didn't really.

00:24:34.916 --> 00:24:37.102
It didn't really make a difference, and I remember that too.

00:24:37.102 --> 00:24:41.170
Like I would bring my gay friends around mom and dad when I was 15, 16, 17, 18.

00:24:41.170 --> 00:24:47.286
I wasn't like here's my gay friend Joey and here's my gay friend Gabriel, like they were my friends.

00:24:47.286 --> 00:24:47.686
Yeah.

00:24:47.686 --> 00:24:51.564
You knew, um, but there was never a oh.

00:24:51.564 --> 00:24:56.249
Please don't bring your friends over here or we don't want you to have your birthday party over here, cause do you think?

00:24:56.430 --> 00:24:58.882
do you think that it would have been different had they not been so religious?

00:24:59.623 --> 00:25:11.780
Absolutely Because that because religion, religion and I know there are a few that don't teach this religion teaches that homosexuality is a sin and it's an abomination and that you can't do whatever.

00:25:11.780 --> 00:25:23.933
So when that's drilled into you your entire life, yeah, and you do nothing to search outside of that and to understand and to whatever it demonizes not not demonizes, but like it dehumanizes people.

00:25:23.933 --> 00:25:28.839
Right, it's the same thing that happened and I don't want to compare homosexuality with the Holocaust.

00:25:28.839 --> 00:25:40.400
But when you, when you look at that like that was a dehumanization of Jewish people, that when we don't care about taking over and slay, enslaving, whatever, that's a dehumanization of people.

00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:47.589
So it's super easy for people to get really upset and really controversial and really like, oh, you guys should all die.

00:25:47.589 --> 00:25:50.223
Like you do realize that I'm still a human being.

00:25:50.223 --> 00:25:51.166
Right, like this.

00:25:51.166 --> 00:25:51.969
Nothing's changed.

00:25:51.969 --> 00:25:57.951
I'm still a human being, I still have red blood, I still have the basic necessities that everybody else does.

00:25:57.951 --> 00:26:03.330
Nothing has changed except for the idea that you have that you're right.

00:26:03.330 --> 00:26:03.711
Right.

00:26:03.872 --> 00:26:07.128
And that and that your Supreme being is no wall tail.

00:26:07.128 --> 00:26:15.220
I'll see all and correct yeah, a hundred percent of the time, yeah, and it's just that simple, without that component.

00:26:15.220 --> 00:26:18.348
I've seen other friends who don't have religious parents.

00:26:18.348 --> 00:26:19.511
They don't.

00:26:19.511 --> 00:26:20.585
I don't have conversations like this with them.

00:26:20.585 --> 00:26:21.329
I don't have to have oh well parents.

00:26:21.329 --> 00:26:21.550
They don't.

00:26:21.550 --> 00:26:24.323
I don't have conversations like this with them, I don't have to have oh well, how is your religious upbringing?

00:26:24.323 --> 00:26:25.164
Yeah, how is this?

00:26:25.305 --> 00:26:31.164
how is that and then I also look at it of there's a reason why none of the children are religious.

00:26:32.488 --> 00:26:39.230
We all saw outside of that and we all saw we all noticed that the emperor wasn't wearing any exactly well, and we also like we wanted.

00:26:39.570 --> 00:26:41.465
we would love for women to be treated equally.

00:26:41.465 --> 00:26:43.133
We would love for men to would love for women to be treated equally.

00:26:43.133 --> 00:26:44.559
We would love for men, gay people, to be treated equally.

00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:57.806
Like, at the core of things, we're all still human beings and this idea that we're somehow better because of this religion that we're saying is the one, and it's all of them, like most of them, they all, most of them say that they're the, they're the best one or they're the true one.

00:26:57.806 --> 00:27:06.948
But if you don't have those ideas being fed into you from birth, basically, who are you to say it's the same thing for racism?

00:27:06.948 --> 00:27:08.242
Yeah, like I.

00:27:08.242 --> 00:27:14.946
I noticed a lot more racism in all of my siblings than in me, because I was really young when we moved out of South Dakota.

00:27:14.946 --> 00:27:18.426
I had Chinese, black, mexican, hispanic, like any.

00:27:18.426 --> 00:27:21.554
All I had friends of every spectrum of the rainbow.

00:27:21.554 --> 00:27:23.607
You guys didn't start off that way.

00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:25.486
I didn't see a black person until I was 10.

00:27:25.486 --> 00:27:26.630
Exactly, we didn't have TV.

00:27:26.630 --> 00:27:28.767
There weren't black people in South Dakota.

00:27:28.880 --> 00:27:29.281
I literally.

00:27:29.281 --> 00:27:35.830
I remember the first time I saw a black person I was like and the only thing that we grew up with was hatred towards Native Americans, Right.

00:27:35.830 --> 00:27:51.267
So when you look at that too, you look at trying to expose yourself to more yes and you but you also have to make a conscious effort to do better, right?

00:27:51.287 --> 00:27:53.778
Well, you reprogram that stuff because it's like what came in is not necessarily what you want to go forward with.

00:27:53.778 --> 00:28:00.301
You know, the organized religion component of that, you know, for us was very, a lot of shame and a lot of guilt associated with that.

00:28:00.301 --> 00:28:01.183
I remember.

00:28:01.183 --> 00:28:15.426
You know I still to this day have something that's really, really hardwired inside of me that makes the man the head of the household and he's the one that kind of makes the final decision and he has a little bit more weight than the wife does in the house.

00:28:15.426 --> 00:28:30.702
That's a whole religious component of stuff that was brought in and I look at that and I have to like check myself a little bit sometimes, because there's not a part of my world where I don't cover at least half, and then some I don't have to fucking check with anybody.

00:28:30.742 --> 00:28:31.484
That's outrageous.

00:28:31.484 --> 00:28:38.522
You know what I mean the idea that like I'm going to be subservient to some man in my house, but that's literally how the organized religion component still comes in.

00:28:38.522 --> 00:28:43.653
So women are not equal in that situation, which to me is like I mean I couldn't move out of the house fast enough.

00:28:43.653 --> 00:28:50.830
You know they're pushing this stuff on me and as a teenager, I'm starting to get my own views on things and whatever and it's like no, no, you're going this way.

00:28:50.830 --> 00:28:53.224
It's like don't touch me, get away from me.

00:28:53.224 --> 00:29:04.612
Like everything about our upbringing and organized religion for me was such a crock of shit I couldn't get my head around it and it definitely like no one else realizes that the emperor is not wearing any clothes, you know, it's just.

00:29:04.612 --> 00:29:10.930
It's put your head in the sand and believe these things that are just so antiquated and such crap.

00:29:11.029 --> 00:29:14.243
You know, it's like this is not how I'm going to be, and so to.

00:29:14.243 --> 00:29:14.904
But you do?

00:29:14.904 --> 00:29:24.811
You have to kind of like pull those things out and reprogram the things that you were hardwired with of, like this is how this is supposed to be, because that's not how it's supposed to be in my world.

00:29:24.932 --> 00:29:26.154
You know, I remember talking to dad.

00:29:26.154 --> 00:29:34.606
They came up like a year and a half ago up north and we were talking about the moral compass, you know, and I said who's more moral compass?

00:29:34.606 --> 00:29:35.971
And he says the moral compass.

00:29:35.971 --> 00:29:37.883
I'm like there's not just one moral compass.

00:29:37.883 --> 00:29:41.390
You think everyone in the world goes by yours and that's why things are falling apart.

00:29:41.390 --> 00:29:44.054
I'm like people are not all raised the same exact way.

00:29:44.054 --> 00:29:45.727
Everybody has all of their different stuff.

00:29:45.727 --> 00:29:52.265
And I think I blew his mind a little bit because it was just like and I'm telling him stay in your own lane as long as you're not hurting other people.

00:29:52.265 --> 00:29:53.470
You believe what you want to believe.

00:29:53.579 --> 00:30:26.595
You believe what you want to believe Like it doesn't, it doesn't matter, it doesn't represent anything that that I would want to have anything to do with you know, Um, I feel like I was having a conversation last night with Cameron about, about, uh, you know how, how men are raised and boys are raised in this Horribly, by the way.

00:30:26.674 --> 00:30:27.682
How much Horribly.

00:30:27.883 --> 00:30:28.403
It's true.

00:30:28.403 --> 00:30:29.647
No, it's totally true, it's.

00:30:29.647 --> 00:30:47.127
It's interesting because I look at that and I and I look at you know, one of the things that has been a really big topic for me recently is emotional intelligence, right, and I remember, you know, seeing mom growing up and she was all over the place and did not have a handle on her emotions at all.

00:30:47.127 --> 00:30:49.663
It looked very messy and so, for me, I just didn't.

00:30:49.663 --> 00:30:53.982
I just, if emotions were coming up, we just push those down and we just don't deal with that stuff.

00:30:53.982 --> 00:30:59.442
And I continued that pattern for a long, long time, right, which obviously is not the right way to handle.

00:30:59.442 --> 00:31:01.265
That's not intelligence either.

00:31:01.265 --> 00:31:01.545
That's.

00:31:01.545 --> 00:31:05.111
I'll show you contrary, exactly right, which isn't, which isn't good.

00:31:05.111 --> 00:31:06.292
But so we teach our.

00:31:06.292 --> 00:31:09.768
So I've always had this thing about, like, really wanting to help women.

00:31:09.788 --> 00:31:13.740
But I look at men and boys and how we're raising them as well.

00:31:13.740 --> 00:31:16.989
They're raised in the same bullshit that we are as women.

00:31:16.989 --> 00:31:19.301
Uh, just on the opposite side of it, you know so.

00:31:19.301 --> 00:31:23.372
So boys are treated don't be a pussy and stop crying.

00:31:23.372 --> 00:31:24.528
I'll give you something to cry about.

00:31:24.528 --> 00:31:26.623
It's like I don't need something to cry about, I'm already crying.

00:31:26.623 --> 00:31:27.426
You know what I mean.

00:31:27.467 --> 00:31:29.517
Maybe let's talk about what to do with that stuff.

00:31:29.517 --> 00:31:34.484
We're not taught any of that or we weren't at home or in in school or any of that kind of stuff.

00:31:34.484 --> 00:31:43.740
And I look at that and I think we wouldn't have any of the nearly any of the problems that we do now as it relates to that, because we don't know how to handle any of that stuff.

00:31:43.740 --> 00:31:56.703
And I look at grown men now who are 50 and 60 years old, who you know Cameron was saying something about a friend that he was talking to he's like I don't feel stuff anymore, like I don't feel anything.

00:31:56.703 --> 00:31:59.891
He's spent his whole entire life, number one, being raised.

00:32:00.050 --> 00:32:06.628
As we don't do that, we don't talk about things, we don't express our emotions, we don't like use those as a compass like we're supposed to.

00:32:06.628 --> 00:32:08.461
And then you numb, right.

00:32:08.461 --> 00:32:17.125
Then we just numb, we figure out whatever your numb of choices maybe it's food, maybe it's alcohol, maybe it's whatever it is, shopping or, you know, sex or any of the things that we're going to numb for.

00:32:17.125 --> 00:32:32.326
And then you get to this point in your life where you don't have a sense of wonder or a sense of awe, you're not curious about anything, you're just rinse, lather, repeat, right I'm already there I know right, exactly right so, but that's why you're doing the things that you're doing right, which is which is a question, then, what are you doing to?

00:32:32.487 --> 00:32:43.253
because I think that you see the other side of that I think you realize that there's more than the rinse lather repeat, which is a big part of my last several years of really being on this journey of realizing.

00:32:43.253 --> 00:32:44.621
I used to think that that was it.

00:32:44.621 --> 00:32:50.924
I used to think rinse lather repeat, whoever does the game best, whoever gets the most money, whoever does like blah, blah, blah blah.

00:32:50.924 --> 00:32:52.648
I understand the rules, I'm going for it.

00:32:52.648 --> 00:32:54.741
Um, it's not like that at all.

00:32:54.741 --> 00:33:15.207
I totally see that now, which is excellent, right, which was, which is what has us here talking on this couch because I feel like I've gotten the cheat code a little bit, you know, and I want to share it with other people because I've done enough work on myself over the last several years where it's like holy shit, you can really feel some high highs that that are alcohol and drugs.

00:33:15.207 --> 00:33:21.369
Don't touch how great you can feel if you're, you know, do the work to kind of clean out all of that shit that's in the at your base.

00:33:21.369 --> 00:33:33.325
You know, we all have all of this childhood trauma and other things because, regardless of whether you realize how much it affected you that you were raised in a, in a church and a community and a family, that says who you are at your core is wrong.

00:33:33.325 --> 00:33:34.446
Something's wrong with you.

00:33:34.446 --> 00:33:35.750
You're defective, right?

00:33:35.750 --> 00:33:42.669
That is a lot to unpack, right, and so so I know that you're doing that and what do you feel like you've been doing that's working?

00:33:42.669 --> 00:33:43.931
What do you feel like that you've been?

00:33:44.031 --> 00:34:03.365
If you're willing to share that, just because I don't think a lot of people understand, like, if you don't pull all of that shit out from your childhood and kind of reprogram stuff, examine, figure out, get curious about why that makes me feel that way, or or whatever that is, if you don't do that, you're dragging that around, whether you realize it or not you are, you drag it everywhere and it gets heavy.

00:34:03.365 --> 00:34:14.295
And so for me, like as I started doing that, as I started examining things and saying that doesn't fit and that doesn't resonate with me of who I am as a person, and okay, oh, this does.

00:34:14.295 --> 00:34:16.077
But let me tweak this a little bit and put it back.

00:34:16.077 --> 00:34:18.521
I almost feel like it's a game of Tetris.

00:34:18.521 --> 00:34:19.442
It's like pulling these things out.

00:34:19.442 --> 00:34:20.724
Does that work for me, does that not?

00:34:20.724 --> 00:34:21.786
Okay, great, put that back.

00:34:21.786 --> 00:34:22.806
Nope, get that gone.

00:34:22.806 --> 00:34:33.068
So what are you doing to kind of heal the part of you that was raised to think that something was wrong with you and that you were defective and do you feel like you've made good progress on that?

00:34:34.121 --> 00:34:40.914
I haven't done specific work on that because I'm not in any sort of intensive therapy or anything like that.

00:34:40.914 --> 00:34:49.050
In any sort of intensive therapy or anything like that and trying to work backwards a little bit, trying to figure out, like okay, what, why?

00:34:49.070 --> 00:35:09.250
like, let's fix some of the immediate present issues so that I don't continue just stacking on and making more mistakes and whatever so the things that we talk about are with finances and with um, why I feel the need to pay for people's way on everything and be helpful and then get bitter that they don't pay me back, and all of those things.

00:35:09.931 --> 00:35:17.201
And recognizing that behavior is stronger with certain people than it is with others, and with people who've been in my life longer than others.

00:35:17.201 --> 00:35:34.032
But also like, hey, when you're looking for friends, don't go for friends who constantly need to suck at the teeth and figuring out just simple basic things like that of okay, what are your six requirements to be your friend?

00:35:34.032 --> 00:35:35.315
What are you talking about?

00:35:35.315 --> 00:35:38.407
If you're nice to me and I'm nice to you, then we're friends.

00:35:38.407 --> 00:35:45.750
It doesn't matter if you're kind of a piece of shit, like just treat me okay a majority of the time and it's like no, you need all of those.

00:35:45.750 --> 00:35:52.682
There's a reason why everybody's so miserable with all their friends and they fight and they like they block each other and then unblock each other and whatever.

00:35:52.682 --> 00:35:58.425
None of that is healthy, because we don't have a way to select healthy relationships and continue to build those.

00:35:58.985 --> 00:36:16.128
So my majority of my stuff is built is working on the current surface level surface level stuff, more recent stuff, identifying like, okay, maybe I've been going back 20 years Like cause I wasn't always doing this, it started about 2025 years ago.

00:36:16.128 --> 00:36:21.726
Um, and also just working on what can I do to improve my life right now.

00:36:21.726 --> 00:36:32.659
Because if I, if I'm not having any enjoyment, if I'm not in a good mental place now, there's no point in going back and doing all that.

00:36:32.659 --> 00:36:41.449
I understand there is, but if I've got all of this stuff up here, that's really blocking me up going down here.

00:36:41.449 --> 00:36:46.509
Great, I've worked on all that and whatever that doesn't fix all this and this is a lot easier to fix.

00:36:46.588 --> 00:36:47.130
Well, I will.

00:36:47.130 --> 00:36:50.806
I will make a suggestion to you just in that what you just said.

00:36:50.806 --> 00:36:59.362
I would suggest starting to pull some of the base stuff out, because I think what you will find is that it will fix some of that surface level stuff with you not even realizing it.

00:36:59.403 --> 00:36:59.963
You know what I mean.

00:36:59.963 --> 00:37:10.655
So if you look at this mound that you have to attack, right, and you're like holy shit, there's so much stuff, right, and you're just, and you're, and you're mowing the weeds is how I use that analogy.

00:37:10.655 --> 00:37:19.048
Right, you're mowing the weeds because it's like okay, this friend and I'm getting used here and I got to figure this out and whatever, if you pull the weeds, it, it really will rock your world.

00:37:19.228 --> 00:37:20.170
You know what I mean and so.

00:37:20.170 --> 00:37:26.097
So again, there's all sorts of modalities that are available to be able to kind of help you work through some of that stuff.

00:37:26.097 --> 00:37:27.041
But I think it will.

00:37:27.041 --> 00:37:34.110
It would really shift things up for you a little bit, because it's like if you're just cutting from the top, you're going to do this till the day you die.

00:37:34.110 --> 00:37:36.561
Not that this journey isn't a lifelong journey right.

00:37:36.681 --> 00:37:46.673
As you're working on yourself at 1000% is, but you might find that it really is going to kick things into high gear, which to me, is where the fun is, because it's like the more that I do, the more that.

00:37:46.673 --> 00:37:47.434
I want to do like.

00:37:47.556 --> 00:37:53.432
I'm addicted to working on myself because I watch how that impacts not only me but then the people that are around me.

00:37:53.432 --> 00:38:11.088
You know, wiley has lived at home during the time when I have done the most work on myself, and that young man is the most emotionally intelligent teenager I've ever met in my entire life, because he has seen the stuff and because he and I talk about all the things and there is no shame or there is no guilt or there is no, any of the things.

00:38:11.128 --> 00:38:13.965
Like he's my buddy, he can talk to me about literally anything.

00:38:13.965 --> 00:38:24.268
He has a village right, being able to have other people, other adults that you trust, that your children can talk to, because if you're sending your kids off to talk to their friends or figure stuff out on the internet, you've lost it.

00:38:24.268 --> 00:38:26.731
You've lost it as far as I'm concerned.

00:38:26.731 --> 00:38:36.347
I don't remember who I was talking to the other day, but they were saying something about something that their kid brought up that made them uncomfortable and I was like no, no, no, don't be uncomfortable, you can fake it until you make it and be uncomfortable.

00:38:36.347 --> 00:38:39.530
When they're not there, you dive and talk about whatever they'll.

00:38:39.530 --> 00:38:50.038
Let you talk about with them and be honored that they did, because we need more people that are emotionally intelligent enough to have those conversations with you, to do the hard work, to work through things.

00:38:50.038 --> 00:38:57.119
So you know doing some things, I know we, you know happy birthday, by the way, because it is your birthday, but like going and doing Reiki right.

00:38:57.380 --> 00:38:59.865
That might blow your mind, because that's the shit that it's like.

00:38:59.865 --> 00:39:09.063
It's like it's going to pull out some of that stuff of like.

00:39:09.063 --> 00:39:09.871

Embracing Vulnerability, Identity, and Family Bonds Through Personal Growth

Listen On

Recent Episodes